Oil-for-Kirsan

Mig, are you campaigning for Kirsan? With 1-2 more such posts you will manage to send all the Arab and Muslim votes to Kirsan in no time! :-)

Giannis, I didn't know that Arab and Muslims were in favor of Saddam Hussein. Is that what you're implying? Because I think most Arabs and Muslims would feel insulted by such an implication.

Mig, I suppose I'm glad you've finally aired this topic, but anyone who didn't know where FIDE's money has been coming from all these years didn't want to know.

Mig I am not sure what you are getting at here. I dont want to read every word of those long reports.

If you are implying that Kirsan is a corrupt politician then look at the politicians in every country of the world including this one. Bush is having problems with members of his staff. and former members who have to quit to fight the prosecutor.

Corruption and Politics go hand in hand like pumpkin in pie.

The real problem is that in most cases they are not caught and they get away with it. The real life situation is that corrupt politicians usually keep their job. just because they are corrupt does not mean they are thrown out of office.

Mig lets say you had all this oil. you could use it to bribe all those who vote for the president of FIDE and using the oil to get someone else in charge.

The real problem is that Kirsan has the FIDE job and can probably keep it by bribing those who vote. he has also set up puppets to vote for him. you need to go after those people who vote. and get them to vote for someone else. the entire world could be against kirsan. but if he gets the votes what can you do about it.

simple problem simple solution. Kirsan needs votes. you must remove his votes.

Right now it looks like kirsan will be around for a long long time.

I would love to vote again kirsan. Probably 99% of the people here on your blog would love to vote against him. but we dont get to vote. all of our votes are meaningless.

Mig, are you aware that the situation in Iraq is worse today than when Hussein was in power? When he was in power, all you had to do was keep your mouth shut and you'd live a decent life. Now no Iraqi lives in peace, over 30,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed by the US in under 3 years. Today, 7 US soldiers were killed, 20 Iraqi civilians (a nearby hospital claimed 40 Iraqi civilian deaths, but of course the US refuses to verify) were killed. So far 92 US soldiers have died this month. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051101/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq;_ylt=ArJTHg7pKCdKOLXTxJWwRkCs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

Here's what an Iraqi civilian said: "At least 20 innocent people were killed by the U.S. warplanes. Why are the Americans killing families? Where are the insurgents?" one middle-aged man told APTN. "We don't see democracy. We just see destruction."

Dionyseus, I assume you would have no problem living under Hitler's rule, while keeping your mouth shut. You would think that Roosevelt, Churchill and DeGaulle were evil warmongers because of all the additional deaths they caused by prolonging World War II after the fall of France.

Jeremy, yes, I'm implying that most Arab, Muslim (and European) people would prefer Saddam Hussein than the current Bush administration. Sad or not, it's true. If you don't live in the US you might have also noticed.

"mig: I wonder if Hallmark makes a "sorry about your torture-fiend maniac buddy getting blown away by the Marines" card."

I guess they better send one to the Bush administration too:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

Sorry, you got to move out of the glass house before you start throwing stones.

Giannis, I live in Sweden, a country who opposed going to war like the US and GBR did (and home country of mr Blix as well...).

Never the less the majority of Swedes (I'm sure!)and probably also the majority of europeans CAN see the difference between a dictator like Saddam Hussein and bad politicians like Bush & Co. We like neither, but the difference is clear.

And *none* of *my* muslim friends (and I have several) are sad that Saddam is on trial. They are happy that he's lost power and in general they blame the violent situation today NOT ONLY on the US. (I won't even mention what my kurdish friends say).

Jens in Stockholm

This thread is really boring.

Does anyone have any anecdote, report or evidence that:

a) Saddam Hussein ever played chess. Being a prisoner with ICC would be significantly better than just moping about the cell.

b) that any US president was ever a half way decent chess player?

c) Or Noriega, does he have an ICC handle?

And an exclusive item by Giannis (sorry Mig!) http://www.opencorsica.com/Pages/news.htm The French Chess Federation is abandoning Karpov in favor of a candidate of their own!

My, my, hard to breathe in here with all the self-righteous blowing of wind. Anyone who reads that item and comes to any conclusions about my opinion of the US invasion of Iraq is incredibly deluded. Don't be so eager to show off your opinion that you do so at completely inappropriate times. The item was about Kirsan. Go rant about Iraq someplace else.

http://www.chessbase.com/columns/column.asp?pid=169

Yah, I got a press release from the French federation yesterday about Battesti's candidacy. No time to run it now, crazy deadlines this week.

reckon we have our own vice leader whose gonna be playing from a cramped position for a couple of hours on the unscam topic.

"Jeremy, yes, I'm implying that most Arab, Muslim (and European) people would prefer Saddam Hussein than the current Bush administration. Sad or not, it's true. If you don't live in the US you might have also noticed."

What an absurd and ignorant comment.

"mig: Don't be so eager to show off your opinion that you do so at completely inappropriate times. The item was about Kirsan. Go rant about Iraq someplace else."

Hmmm - looking at the original post, I see this line:
"There were various stories on Kirsan's involvement in Iraq, but the release of the full report has cleared up a few things. "

and this one: "I'm sure it had nothing at all to do with all the nice things Ilyumzhinov had to say about Hussein. Maybe he'll be a character witness at his trial."

oh, yeah, and this: "Kirsan Ilyumzhinov - Russia - President of Kalmykia - 3 million barrels - As FIDE president attempted to organize international chess matches in Baghdad in violation of sanctions, visited Uday Hussein one day before U.S. invasion."

It does seem that the original post seemed to touch on Iraq, to put it mildly, and that the post was carrying some preconceived ideas about the Hussein regime and the oil-for-food program. So it did seem to put the whole Iraq ball in the air, so-to-speak. A few of the subsequent posts have simply challenged some of the assumptions loaded in the original one (with varying success), and I just wanted to point out that there is a certain built-in hypocrisy when me or one of my fellow Americans criticizes another government for the way they obtain oil (btw, during the same period, the Black Knight Dick Cheney received a special waiver for Halliburton to do business with Hussein - he's vice-president of the U.S. now, and leads it's energy policy). I think about the Shah, the Nigerian dicatorship, the new death squads in Colombia, and of course the ongoing carnage in Iraq (oops), and I'm back to the old glass houses thing again.

But I do agree, Kirsan is a third-world goon, and he does lack some of the finesses of our first-world ones.

"mig: Don't be so eager to show off your opinion that you do so at completely inappropriate times. The item was about Kirsan. Go rant about Iraq someplace else."

Hmmm - looking at the original post, I see this line:
"There were various stories on Kirsan's involvement in Iraq, but the release of the full report has cleared up a few things. "

and this one: "I'm sure it had nothing at all to do with all the nice things Ilyumzhinov had to say about Hussein. Maybe he'll be a character witness at his trial."

oh, yeah, and this: "Kirsan Ilyumzhinov - Russia - President of Kalmykia - 3 million barrels - As FIDE president attempted to organize international chess matches in Baghdad in violation of sanctions, visited Uday Hussein one day before U.S. invasion."

It does seem that the original post seemed to touch on Iraq, to put it mildly, and that the post was carrying some preconceived ideas about the Hussein regime and the oil-for-food program. So it did seem to put the whole Iraq ball in the air, so-to-speak. A few of the subsequent posts have simply challenged some of the assumptions loaded in the original one (with varying success), and I just wanted to point out that there is a certain built-in hypocrisy when me or one of my fellow Americans criticizes another government for the way they obtain oil (btw, during the same period, the Black Knight Dick Cheney received a special waiver for Halliburton to do business with Hussein - he's vice-president of the U.S. now, and leads it's energy policy). I think about the Shah, the Nigerian dicatorship, the new death squads in Colombia, and of course the ongoing carnage in Iraq (oops), and I'm back to the old glass houses thing again.

But I do agree, Kirsan is a third-world goon, and he does lack some of the finesses of our first-world ones.

Rubbish. Kirsan is the president of FIDE, the international chess federation. That he is directly associated with the scandal is relevant, or at least an appropriate topic. This is relevant to chess because Kirsan is. That he associated with Hussein is. That he visited Uday is at least interesting. But it's about Kirsan because he is directly related to chess. Chess. Chess. Were Rumsfeld the president of the international chess federation then I would mention him more often.

So, you say, if you are implying that Kirsan may not be a boy to take home to mother because he hung out with Hussein and took cheap oil, why don't you mention that Hussein used to be a buddy of the US and that 5,000 people, companies, and nations took that money too. BECAUSE THE US ADMINISTRATION IS NOT THE PRESIDENT OF THE INTERNATIONAL CHESS FEDERATION. Nor is anyone else on the oil-for-food scandal list. Nor is anyone else who visited Uday before the invasion.

I was commenting on your (and my, if I was going down the same road) hypocrisy, another oil-slurping American making loaded statements like "I wonder if Hallmark makes a "sorry about your torture-fiend maniac buddy getting blown away by the Marines" card".

So what if he met with Uday Hussein? Maybe he did what he had to in order to keep the lights on at home. Maybe he held his nose and put on his Italian suit and said 'just do it'. My point is that the people who keep us in the lap of luxury here in the States (e.g. Rusmfeld and Cheney) did the same types of things. Oil is what keeps your SUV going there, bud, and it only seems to come out of the dirtiest ground on Earth, and every damn deal seems to be with the devil. So on the Glass House Theory, it should take a lot more than this to disqualify him from being FIDE president.

It's not hypocrisy to not write a damn essay on oil usage and American geopolitics in an item about the president of FIDE being involved in an international scandal. "You can't criticize him because others are guilty too, so either criticize everyone equally or don't say anything at all" is not a glass house argument at all, it's simple nonsense.

If *I* were involved in getting oil from Hussein, it might be a little bit hypocritical to criticize Ilyumzhinov for it. That I happen to have been born in the United States, on the other hand, cannot invalidate my argument. In fact, were I to say that I was born in Argentina and that oil-slurping Americans and Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld make me physically ill, would the relevance of Ilyumzhinov's dealings with Saddam Hussein suddenly change?

"mig: It's not hypocrisy to not write a goddamn essay on oil usage and American geopolitics in an item about the president of FIDE being involved in an international scandal."

Go and look at the quotes I pulled from your original post - you brought up oil and geopolitics, with your opinions built-in to phrases like "torture-fiend maniac buddy" and "Three million barrels, not too shabby". Maybe you were trying to score points for style, I don't know, but me and some others here are simply challenging some of the assumptions underlying these statements.

"If *I* were involved in getting oil from Hussein, it might be a little bit hypocritical to criticize Ilyumzhinov" - you were, dude - you live here, we burn the most oil, our lifestyles (and economy) take cheap and plentiful oil as axiomatic (how many Starbucks do you think there are in Kalmykia?) You and I are as guilty as Cheney and Kirsan in reaping the benefits of the dirty work they do when dealing with assholes like Saddam and Uday. Those in Glass Houses should go solar, maybe.

Dionyseus and Giannis:
Please confess that you both like kirsan and saddam inside.

Brilliant, anonymous coward. No American can criticize anything because the USA is the big bad evil empire. Wrong. Where I live and where I was born have nothing to do with Kirsan Ilyumzhinov's dealings with Saddam Hussein, no more than it affects 2+2=4. This "yeah but you guys..." is pure deflection. We are not all members of the Bush administration and it wouldn't even matter if we were in this case. Last I checked, the Bushies weren't running FIDE. Chess. Chess. Chess.

I brought up Kirsan's oil, Kirsan's contacts, and Kirsan's politics. They are relevant. This is a chess blog. He's the president of FIDE. Cheney is not. Chess.

Everybody (sane) in chess is against Ilyumzhinov, why does he get reelected all the time? This is not new, the same thing happened with Campomanes.

There's something fundamentally wrong with the election process.

Do YOU know who your representative of your federation voted for last time? (not just asking US members here)

Earlier, and on topic, I stated: so what if he met with Uday Hussein? Kirsan would join an all-star cast of French, Germans, and of course Americans. You'd need a lot more than that to go on if you're going to get rid of him.

"mig: No American can criticize anything because the USA is the big bad evil empire. Wrong."
And of course you're distorting what I said into something that I didn't - my statements were restricted to oil usage (btw, 3 million barrels is about what California uses in a day), and went to support my (see above) point that making oil deals with Iraq was pretty much par for the course, U.N. sanctions or no. Americans should feel to criticize anything as long as they stop to take a look at themselves along the way. For example, you could use a few lessons in logic - couldn't hurt your CHESS CHESS CHESS.

I'll take logic, just not your idea of it. You are still saying that no American is allowed to comment on a topic because of your vague interpretation of American evils in the world. You don't know me and don't speak for me. You don't invalidate the opinions of 300 million people because of their geographic location. It's mindless discrimination, emphasis on the mindless, considering that it would still be irrelevant to the item were I a Hummer-driving Bush-loving gun-toting red-stater. As I said, there is no hypocrisy here at all unless I am on the oil-for-food scandal list, which I am not, last I checked. Blaming me for the sins you perceive in the US administration or populace, and saying I therefore have no right to state an opinion, is silly.

I guess I missed the part of my post where I tried to get rid of Kirsan. Pointing out that he's in the news seems like, well, news. And let me know if any of the other people who met with Uday before the invasion were senior members of the chess community. If you read the post you can see I make no value judgments about the meeting in the first place.

Yes, making oil deals with Iraq was apparently par for the course, that's why it's not on the front page of every paper and in the news. Oh wait, it is. In fact, they're calling it a scandal. Hmm, maybe worth a mention that the FIDE president is implicated in the dealings. No, wait, I was born in California and therefore my opinion on anything in the world even vaguely to do with energy is not permitted. So confusing. What if he had taken millions in dollars in weapons, or goats? Chess pieces?

The earlier poster makes a good point about knowing who your federation voted for last time, but unfortunately nobody really tracks this stuff to my knowledge. Plus, the average member is entirely removed from this stuff. Wholesale vote purchasing is normal and has been for a long time. Word on the street (i.e. to me) from a source in Brazil and another in Argentina is that Kirsan promised to forgive all Lat Am federation debt in exchange for their votes in May.

"mig: You are still saying that no American is allowed to comment on a topic because of your vague interpretation of American evils in the world."

Well, that would be contradictory as I'm an american and I'm commenting on a topic. I spoke of one specific evil, oil dependency, which has driven us to support a collection of maniacs in the mideast until they turned against us. And I better not be 'vague' here - the Shah of Iran (we overthrew the democratically elected leader Mossadegh to re-instate - google Operation Ajax), the Saudi Royal Family, and Hussein himself until he went in to conquerer mode.

"Blaming me for the sins you perceive in the US administration or populace.." I'm not blaming you for anything, saying only that you and I and our whole society help maintain said maniacs, and it is hypocritical to criticize others for something we participate in.

"Yes, making oil deals with Iraq was apparently par for the course, that's why it's not on the front page of every paper and in the news. Oh wait, it is." But of course, Fox News has been on top of it the whole time, so there's no way it could serve as a deflection-of-blame tactic, because they're as fair and balanced as they come.

"mig: If you read the post you can see I make no value judgments about the meeting in the first place." Um, uh, er - I have to quote this one more time - "I wonder if Hallmark makes a "sorry about your torture-fiend maniac buddy getting blown away by the Marines" card." That's not even the least bit judgmental in it's implications?

Man, it's so hard to have a rational discussion on the Internet these days.

"mig: You are still saying that no American is allowed to comment on a topic because of your vague interpretation of American evils in the world."

Well, that would be contradictory as I'm an american and I'm commenting on a topic. I spoke of one specific evil, oil dependency, which has driven us to support a collection of maniacs in the mideast until they turned against us. And I better not be 'vague' here - the Shah of Iran (we overthrew the democratically elected leader Mossadegh to re-instate - google Operation Ajax), the Saudi Royal Family, and Hussein himself until he went in to conquerer mode.

"Blaming me for the sins you perceive in the US administration or populace.." I'm not blaming you for anything, saying only that you and I and our whole society help maintain said maniacs, and it is hypocritical to criticize others for something we participate in.

"Yes, making oil deals with Iraq was apparently par for the course, that's why it's not on the front page of every paper and in the news. Oh wait, it is." But of course, Fox News has been on top of it the whole time, so there's no way it could serve as a deflection-of-blame tactic, because they're as fair and balanced as they come.

"mig: If you read the post you can see I make no value judgments about the meeting in the first place." Um, uh, er - I have to quote this one more time - "I wonder if Hallmark makes a "sorry about your torture-fiend maniac buddy getting blown away by the Marines" card." That's not even the least bit judgmental in it's implications?

Man, it's so hard to have a rational discussion on the Internet these days.

Coward,
If you want a rational discussion of oil politics, you should take it to a political board. MIG is correct to find it newsworthy that the FIDE president is in the news in a scandal. We are here to discuss chess and chess related issues. I believe that many, many Americans, like you and me, care deeply about the US dependance on oil and wish our politicians would wake up and do something serious about it, but this is not the place for that discussion.

knight_tour: " I believe that many, many Americans, like you and me, care deeply about the US dependance on oil and wish our politicians would wake up and do something serious about it, but this is not the place for that discussion."

I guess you're right man, but he (mig) did bring all of this up, and besides, talking about chess is boring, though I love the game like a woman.

Anyway, Let's face it, the international body FIDE is going to have to scare up money wherever they can. Kasparov correctly described the problem when he said there was "no reliable corporate sponsorship". And I don't think that's due to change at any time in the near future. I remember during the nineties when companies like Intel and IBM and I think Microsoft were sponsoring big chess events, but that time has faded away with the altered global capital flows. And so guys like Kirsan and Ghadafi (who actually kind of cracks me up at times) are going to be brought into the picture from time-to-time. But here my point about the original poster's outlook becomes germane - I get the feeling he's absorbed too much of the party line here. People outside of America have a different view of world events, and don't buy into the whole black-and-white-they're-bad-because-the-U.S.-said-so outlook. There's shades of gray, and if you want to have professional chess, you're going to have to stomach some strong seasoning at times.

I also still think that kasparov's loss to Deep Blue really hurt professional chess as far as sponsorship - there is still a sense among many non-players that the computers are better now, and I don't think Michael Adams did much to dispel that notion.

Sorry, you're still telling me I can't give my opinion about something because of where I live, which is nonsense. No one is implicated by birth. If anything we have more responsibility to speak, not to shut up. No, we don't lose the right to speak about the world because the country we live in is not perfect. Troll time over. Talk chess or go to Eschaton to blow off the self-righteous steam.

But at least we know the money is going to a good cause:

http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/11/01/buddhamonument.shtml

Coward,
There is a place on this site to try to discuss such issues if you like. You should try the Message Boards link in the upper left, register, and then use the Off-Topic area to post discussions. There are some good, intelligent regular users of the board.

As for sponsorship of chess, I believe it has dried up ONLY because of the corruption and craziness of today's chess world. If FIDE got good, stable leadership and returned the world title cycle to some relevance then sponsorship would pick up again.

"mig: Sorry, you're still telling me I can't give my opinion about something because of where I live, which is nonsense."

No, man, I'm simply telling you that your opinion is wrong. And of course, as my fellow American, you're entitled to hold on to it anyway - as far as being back on topic - see the above post. The question is money, and money makes it's own rules, it makes for shady players and strange bedfellows - I would really like to know the revenue sources for Fide - what percentage comes from dues, from private companies, from post-communist warlords, whatever. It seems like a clear accounting is the first step to an accurate judgment. If Ilyumzhinov is channeling his own cash into the project, he is probably a better bedfellow thatn someone who is intent on directing it the other way (rumor: Karpov). So let's get a clear view of the choices before we rush to judgment.

I didn't bring all this up, I brought up chess and you had a hissy fit. There is life outside the US. I lived outside of it for most of my adult life. That you see "party line" in my post is ironic. And what is my opinion? The wrong one? Do tell. That it's of interest that the president of FIDE is on the oil-for-food list. Wrong?

Somebody with more time than I have should figure out the prize funds of the biggest tournaments and the earnings of the top players adjusted for inflation over the past few decades. Kasparov was a giant living anomaly money-wise, but other than that I don't see the top 20 now making less than they did 20 years ago. There are just many more wannabe pros these days. But as a percentage I'd say the top players are doing better than before. There might be fewer professionals now in sheer numbers because of the collapse of the Soviet system with all its semi-pros.

"mig: Somebody with more time than I have should figure out the prize funds of the biggest tournaments and the earnings of the top players adjusted for inflation over the past few decades."

I thought we were talking about FIDE (not how much money indivdual players are making), and it's economic health, which correlates directly to it's ability to field events like world championship cycles.

Ilyumzhinov has put together the cash for San Luis, and now (ostensibly) this World Cup qualifier. He's shook out some money from under whatever rock, and the question is, would Karpov or this French guy be able to do the same? Is the money coming from dues, from private interests, or Kirsan's own bank account? These are things that should be taken into account before we start throwing out the bathwater.

As far as the 'party line' thing goes, if you can't see the bias in the phrases from your original post I have quoted and quoted, no amount of explanation will suffice - just drop it.

In regards to who can bring in more money than Ilyumzhinov, it should be just about anybody. The point is not how much "personal" money he can attract, what we need is to not look corrupt when trying to get corporate sponsorship; What we need is to be well organized, predictable and sane.

As to cowards multiple statements, this is what I believe: Mig could have written this item to accomodate also your (and no-one elses) sensibilities. The article would have read:

Ilyumzhinov received 3 million barrels of oil under the oil for food program.

I don't know about you, but thats not why I come here...

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