A stunning, if not entirely surprising, press release by Vladimir Kramnik announced his withdrawal from the Jan. 13 Corus Wijk aan Zee supertournament and his treatment for a severe form of arthritis.
“I would like to inform the chess community that due to health problems I shall not be able to participate in the Corus Chess Tournament 2006.
A couple of years ago a form of arthritis was diagnosed. This disease causes painful inflammation in the joints. Unfortunately since that time, the symptoms have started to appear more often and with greater severity. A new recent crises makes it necessary to undertake serious clinical treatment. Solving the present problem within a few months will allow me to come back and enjoy competitive chess at the highest level.
I want to stress clearly, that – as always – I am eager to continue and enhance my chess career. There are still many goals to achieve.”
Kramnik has long had bouts of ill health and low energy, including back problems going back to his teens. Rumors of a chronic illness had gone around even before he dropped out of the Russian superfinal in 2004 with remarks about exhaustion and sickness stemming from his Brissago world championship match with Leko. ChessBase takes an informed guess at Ankylosing Spondylitis being the culprit. (Link goes to FAQ.)
This is terrible news for the chess community and also for chess, which over the last few years has seen the nearly unprecedented decay of one of the most talented players of the last quarter century. We wish him well and hope the treatment is both painless and entirely successful. Please post your best wishes below.
Valery Salov had both physical and mental troubles and dropped out for a while. He came back strong but left entirely in 1999. The sad case of Brazil's Henrique Mecking is well known. He was one of the top five players in the world when he was brought low by a serious illness in 1979. He returned to chess twelve years later but hasn't played often. Other cases include Pillsbury and his syphilis and many brilliant careers (and lives) cut short by alcoholism. Of course there is little in the way of health care for GMs.
As for Corus, they have experience with last-minute replacements. Svidler and Ponomariov are the top-rated players not already participating. Then Morozevich, Grischuk and Polgar. Perhaps young Mamedyarov? Or maybe the most successful Corus last-minute replacement ever could do it again. Garry Kasparov played in his first Corus in 1999 when Nigel Short dropped out and went on to score 10/13...
Not for me to say "I told you so" at this sad moment.
My respect for Kramnik has never waned. We know have the explanation for a phenomenon that was hard to explain indeed. May he soon return to chess as its architects (at the board I see him more as a builder than a painter), and I am sure his illustrious colleagues join me in my wishes.
Sorry, but I hit "post" too soon, this needs editing:
"We now have the explanation..."
"May he soon return to chess as one of its foremost architects..."
I'll be more careful next time.
Charley
Nice of Mig to provide this forum for get-well wishes.
Mr. Kramnik,
If you never play another game, you've accomplished more and contributed more great games to the archives than most of us ever will.
Rest, relax, take it easy. The chess world was totally screwed up while you were around, and won't get any worse while you're gone.
Get well.
This was very saddening to read, although it was easy to suspect a serious illness of some sort.
I wanted to wrote "Get well soon, Vlad", but AS is incurable. You can only reduce the pain and such associated with it. Get as well as possible, then. Please.
I wonder if all those who kept heckling him for his bad results and so-called "excuses" will apologize. This would be a good thread for that.
My sympathies as well to Kramnik. It's unfortunate to have something like this happen to you in the prime of your career. Hopefully he'll be back for Turin and Dortmund, and in pre-2005 form.
Kramnik could have "fronted" his health problems. His short draws and unspectacular results would have been understood and accepted and he might even have appeared a heroic figure, fighting through adversity.
Instead, he mainly kept his health problems private, keeping his head down and playing as well as he could for as long as he could.
I don't believe that people who criticized Kramnik for short draws or unspectacular play have anything to apologize for. If Kramnik wanted to spare himself these attacks, he could have fronted his health problems. But I respect him more for mainly keeping these problems private.
In former threads, when Kramnik had poor results and said that it was because of his match against Leko, (the "Brissago virus", as it was sarcastically called) I doubted it, and wrote it here. This time, when the disease is explicitly described, and a former competition is not mentioned as the reason, I have no problem at all in taking his word. I wish him a good recovery, and that he goes back to his old good form.
WHO WILL REPALACE KRAMNIK I THE TOURNAMENT?
I felt quite guilty reading of Kramnik's illness. For several years I believed that Kramnik "got lucky" vs. Kasparov, especially in light of his more recent results. Best Wishes to Kramnik and his family for successful treatment and a speedy recovery.
I agree with Koster, Mig's turnabout is a conversion on the level of A Christmas Carol: a mean spirit doused & dispatched overnight. Nothing will surprise now - not even the admission that Kramnik may have been a worthy champion after all.
And one hopes we'll see no more posts of this nature:
"After Drawnik, after Blundnik, here comes Cowardnik. Of course, he says he's not Cowardnik but just Illnik. But I don't believe him."
Bye for now to one of the great champions of modern times. May he return soon to bestow his unmatched gifts upon the unmasterable game.
Here's to a the health of Kramnik!
Poor Clubbie couldn't even muster the willpower to say something nice about Kramnik without lying and trolling. Weak.
Saying that if Kramnik does well he's a hero for overcoming illness and if he does poorly it's because of his illness is oversimplification. Chess is a tough game and few of those who play it professionally do so without overcoming obstacles. Kramnik certainly deserves sympathy and support, but there's no need to make spectacles of yourselves on his behalf. I rather doubt he would want that.
Pinning his future (or past, for that matter) results to his illness isn't fair to him as a competitor. You can't play such a hard game while feeling sorry for yourself or while thinking that everyone will understand if you don't do well. It's called pride, and it's why he hasn't gone public with this previously.
With Kramnik's departure, this leaves Corus without any Russian players. A somewhat unusual situation. WAZ has always had a European bias (not that there's anything wrong with that), but I wonder if there's a recent precedent for a supertournament without any Russian players at all.
It's a very sad day for chess fans. Kramnik like all other top players has given us many hours of entertainment and enlightenment over the board. Sometimes in the midst of daily chess squabbling a lot of us who don't actually know the greats tend to tout them like brands of soap losing sight of the fact that they lead lives filled with family problems, social anxiety, bills to pay and of course health problems. Here's to you Mr. Kramnik...a Texas double-shot to acknowledge your past accomplishments...I'll be looking forward to your return to the arena as soon as you're able.
This is simly Kramnik running away from Topalov. He did it in 2004 when he learned Kasparov was playing in the Russian Superfinals. Kramnik has been using his illness as an excuse for about two years, this is not something new. I'm proud to say Kramnik's foolish claims to the championship and a possible match against Topalov are now over, hail to the only king, Topalov, and may 2006 be another great year of chess.
Very classy, Dionyseus. And Mig...
"Poor Clubbie couldn't even muster the willpower to say something nice about Kramnik without lying and trolling. Weak."
Poor Migalo couldn't even see that "Clubbie" was saying something nice about the moderator (a rare thing rarely earned), and then he couldn't even muster the willpower to restrain himself from another ad hominem attack based upon his own dishonesty.
As for the rest, alas, the promising thread was a false alarm. Mig will continue kicking to death the "gutless Kramnik" angle as long as GK says it's cool. Weak. You aren't fit to lick the bottom of Kramnik's boots.
BS about a "conversion," trolling about "admisssions," blah blah blah. Since Clubbie is my most loyal reader he knows I've always credited Kramnik's play, particularly against Kasparov in 2000. As for the "gutless" remark, that's just making up more crap. I said Kramnik doesn't need or want pity and it's not fair to him to provide excuses. He's not making them so others shouldn't make them for him. He doesn't need them. It was a compliment. Ad hominem indeed.
Macuga: we will have to wait until Corus announces Kramnik's replacement. As things stand now, it is of course pretty devastating for "Russian" chess. The only consolation is that a small minority of 6 players speak Russian as their first language (Ivanchuk, Aronian, Gelfand, Tiviakov, Kamsky, Karjakin.) [As an aside, Topalov and Bacrot are apparently fluent, too. Not sure about Sokolov; I would bet he (at least) understands a good deal of the language.] To me this really seems closer to the Russian Superfinal, part 2 than a Russians-free tournament.
Also keep in mind that if today's criteria had been used, say, 20 years ago, people like Tal, Petrosian and Garry Kimovich himself would (arguably) not have been classified as Russians, either.
And we shouldn't make it sound like the guy is dead and gone. Players often take a few months off. If his health is good it might not require extra chess recuperation time. So he might be in shape for the Olympiad and Dortmund, as someone mentioned.
Also note that the "diagnosis" posted on ChessBase and above about AS is not confirmed, so we can hope it might not be that severe. My fear is that if the diagnosis is true or worse he might be tempted to partially retire instead of playing at a level he knows is below his peak. Can a 2800 be content with life as a 2700? Usually only players in their late 40's have to answer this sort of question. Anyway, better to focus on the positive since we have no idea how things are going to turn out.
The wind shall howl, and the oceans shall shed a million tears in sadness.
Buena suerte compadre
Yes, Kramnik hs shown us the kind of honesty, courage, and character not seen since Tal's moments of tragedy back in 1962. A regular hero, this Kramnik.
I was talking specifically about Russian chess, not about Soviet or ex-Soviet chess.
As an aside, I sympathize with Kramnik's disease (my father suffers from something similar, assuming Chessbase's guess is correct). Arthritis is a thoroughly crippling disease, and its progressive nature can make the victims and their families feel especially helpless. Here's hoping he recovers.
It's a great pity because Kramnik was the greatest upholder of the classical style having taken over the torch from Karpov.
Best wishes to him....................
According to the official site, Kramnik is replaced by Mamedyarov.
Anyway, noone forces a player to participate in a tournament if he do not wants. What matters if he is ill or he is in love or whatever...
He decided not to play and everybody should respect it. Good luck to Mamedyarov (nevertheless i would prefer to see Morozevich playing..)
No one forces a player to claim to be World Chess Champion (and accepting the accompanied responsibilities) either.
Does anyone know why Kasparov was not invited/didnt accept initially for Corus 99?
I wish the fastest recovery of Vladimir Kramnik.
It was quite clear that there has been a problem with him in the last months. That was it, after all..
Clubfoot, your comments about my "Drawnik, Blundnik and Cowardnik" remarks are simply unpleasant.
First of all, I said in some other post/thread that Kramnik would not play after his pityfull results at russian superfinal, which proved to be a correct bet.
Then I just don't believe all this. I don't believe that Kramnik is ill, as I didn't believe that Kramnik had good reasons to refuse a rematch to Kasparov. I believe that Kramnik is one of the most talented chess players ever, and that he stopped to study chess in 2002 after his victory against Kasparov. I believe that right now, he's looking for some kind of "honorable escape".
If you look at Kramnik's games, you'll see that before 2002 he had a bunch of novelties. Now he's playing the same variations year after year. I just believe that his illness is a diplomatic escape.
Please everybody note that on www.kramnik.com, under Vladimir Kramnik you can read "world chess champion". He still claims to be world champion, after Sofia 2005, after Dortmund 2005, after the russian superfinal...
I know no sport where a world champion being unable to defend his title would still claim to be the champion...
So this is now clear to everybody I think : Kasparov, 1985-2000 --- Kramnik, 2000-2005 --- Topalov, 2005 ...
News - Mamedyarov vervangt zieke Kramnik
Mamedyarov replaces ill Kramnik
see www.coruschess.com
It is a shame that illness will mark the career of a great player like Kramnik. I hope his health improves and that the can come back to competitive play. He seems to be a gentleman who happens to be a great chess player, which is a nice combination chess could use more of today.
i'm sure kramnik really is ill, poor sod, but the fact that he's ill now does nothing to change my opinion he ran from Kasparov. Hope he recovers very soon, but I'll never forgive him for denying the rematch that many were longing for. and i'll continue to believe he got lucky that first time..
How horrible for Kramnik to be denied d's forgiveness! This will certainly slow his recovery. Btw, Kramnik was lucky with Kasparov the way Capablanca was lucky with Lasker.
Kramnik won the championship in a fair manner. However, he did deny Kasparov a rematch as Alekhine did with Capablanca and for the same reasons: fear and insecurity.
Why should Kasparov be entitled to a rematch ? He didn't go through any qualifying cycle. A rematch was not part of their contract. Kramnik could not have granted Kasparov a rematch just because d or alphonse_halimi wants him to.
Well I would have liked to see a match between Kramnik and Topalov. I love to watch high level chess. I love to see who wins and loses. I love the moves and the drama.
I love all the intrigue that leads up to the match and all the posturing during the match. I love to see the strategy and the tactics. I love to read all that is happening behind the scenes. I love reading Mig's comments on the games.
It is a wonderful window on life. I love it all.
I will miss Kramnik. He has definitely been one of the great chess players. one of the very few to ever get over 2800. a rating much much higher than I have ever been. and higher than anyone I have ever met. much higher than the local GM's that play in tournaments.
I hope that FIDE will see the light and work to choose a challenger for the champion and have that be a match. a match between the challenger and the champion. I believe some day it will return to that.
Kramnik is an example showing what was wrong with the old "system" of having no system. the only true system is that the champion must face a challenge match on a schedule against the best player available. in this case the best player was always Kasparov. and Kramnik hurt himself so much by being afraid to play Kasparov again. A true champion must have no fear of any other player or else he is not a true champion.
Kramnik will never be considered one of the super great world champions simply because he refused to match Kasparov again. Had Kramnik defeated Kasparov a 2nd time that would have made Kramnik a great champion. but he missed his opportunity for greatness.
I wish him a speedy and full recovery and hope he will be able to return to chess at top form.
I see nothing wrong with Kramnik having his web site say he is world champion until the day he dies. Bobby Fischer can do the same.
Once a GM always a GM. Once a World Champion always a World Champion.
and in case anyone feels left out I will add.
Once a Patzer always a Patzer.
tommy
oh well, if it will increase his recovery speed, I guess I have to forgive him. Kramnik, I forgive you. alphonse, very true. i have to say that fair doesnt mean he didnt get lucky. the two are not mutually exclusive.
peach, kasparov may not have been "entitled" to a rematch, but it was a match that had an enormous amount of sporting interest. And Kasparov had more "entitlement" than Kramnik ever had. Pussilanimity and ungraciousness are not endearing traits.
"I hope that FIDE will see the light and work to choose a challenger for the champion and have that be a match."
That is the best possible scenario, but it's too late to change the rules for the 2007 cycle. The best we can hope is for is that common sense will prevail for the 2010 cycle. But in any scenario, Kramnik won't get an automatic seeding to the final. He will have to play his way in, and to date he's declined to do this.
"Kramnik will never be considered one of the super great world champions simply because he refused to match Kasparov again."
That is certainly one reason, but there are others. The period of his dominance was rather brief, and at no point was he actually the #1 player. Many feel that he didn't belong in the 2000 w.c. match to begin with, since he didn't win the qualifier. And his lone title defense, against Peter Leko, wasn't exactly impressive.
Lastly, Kramnik's uncanny superiority over Kasparov wasn't matched by his record over the other top players. Fischer, Karpov, and Kasparov all had significant periods when they annihilated everyone in sight. Kramnik never did that.
"I see nothing wrong with Kramnik having his web site say he is world champion until the day he dies. Bobby Fischer can do the same."
But Fischer is widely regarded as a nut case, and his insistence that he is still the legitimate world champion is one of the many reasons. It's not an example that any sane person would want to emulate, and I assume Kramnik is a sane person. At some point, if he is sensible, Kramnik will have to defend his title against credible opposition, or admit that he is merely a former champion.
Let us hope that he returns to top playing form and shows the world that his defeat of Kasparov was no fluke.
Clubbers -- of course Kramnik doesn't know when we criticize him on a blog. Nor does he care. But then again, he doesn't know when we praise him, or when we offer him well-wishes and a speedy recovery, or when we discuss opening novelties in his games. Nice little red herring there.
Oh I dunno. I know just from personal comments to me and from the addresses on the notifications list that at least a few dozen GMs are regular readers, not to mention a few who post (Kamsky, Shirov, Yermo, etc.), some anonymously. GMs are chess geeks and chess fans too. Really, one of the good/bad things about the chess world is how small it is and how many of the top players DO read such things. I remember being stunned to find out that the players themselves were reading my early TWIC articles, especially since I was being such an ass in most of them. As you can tell, I'm still trying to figure out how to balance having friends and contacts and still being an ass...
I also forward relevant items to people when I think they will enjoy it. Usually that means cheers and support and it is always appreciated. I'll certainly email Kramnik with the highlights here and there will be a similar thread at ChessBase from all the email that has come in.
Being the greater admirer of Kramnik’ talent, I should note the fact that if he had conducted more healthy way of life, then it would have prolonged his longevity in chess.
Night sit-round gathering with girls and drugs, card plays, drunkenness, smoking cigarettes and other demonstrations of chaotic way of life may practically destroy anyone’s health not mentioning the health of the person who is on the chess Olympus. Get well, Vladimir, and next time take an example from Korchnoi who quit smoking before the match in Baguio in 1976 or from such champions as Botvinnik or Kasparov who were more scrupulous and careful in attending to their health problems. We do not want your talent to be ruined and your life shortened as it happened to Tal.
I wish Kramnik and hope he recovers quickly. Auto-immune disorders are usually incurable and can be managed to preserve certain quality of life. I'm not sure if that includes playing very high level competitive Chess.
6 years ago my 8 year old son had suffered from an auto-immune disease called Ulcerative Colitis and was on steroids for a year. He had started playing Chess just over a year ago and became National Co-Champion within a year. After the disease, we slowly reduced his competitive play and he hasn't had a relapse for over 4 years now.
I believe stress is a factor which exacerbates such disorders. I hope Kramnik could have better luck and get this behind him and still come back to play perfect games.
Now we have the explanation for those late round short draws. I can't believe that he would've offered them if he wasn't very fatigued; it simply isn't consistent with his prior fighting character. Speaking as a physician it would be quite rare for any chronic arthridity to cause a person to permanently retire from chess but many are associated with severe fatique. For many years he was the second best chess player on the planet, and I bet that anyone who sits across the board from him now still gets quite nervous. Bradford
Not to in anyway minimize the challenges GM Kramnik faces with his health (and I do wish him the very best), I still think the most extraordinary career for a player with health problems/challenges has got to be Mikhail Tal.
If I remember correctly, I believe that GM Tal once actually suffered a heart attack while at the board, and yet continued playing to the conclusion of the game.
In any event, making it to the world championship with the sort of health history that Tal had just seems unbelievable to me.
First and foremost, I hope for Kramnik a speedy recovery and send him my best wishes. We often speak of sports personalities and celeberties as if they were not flesh and blood, its a shame that it takes serious illness before we see them as people.
Alas, I'm not writing this post simply as a well wisher. I wanted to pose some tough questions that lie between sainting Vlad as a hero (wow) or demonizing him as a coward (haters).
First...Why was Kramnik supposedly negotiating a match with Topalov while this illness was known to him. Were they setting a date far enough in the future that he knew he would be recovered? Does this mean he has full confidence he will recover? What was the nature of his illness during the Leko match?
Second...Why are so many posters using this illness as an explanation for his "drawish" play? I think it was Kasparov who referred to his style as "Stock Market" chess. The way he played in 2000 and almost all of his subsequent play seemed to favor a very cautious approach that was designed to rack up half points. If he played Texas Holdem, he would give pocket Aces a second glance before playing them. I think it was a conscious choice made for reasons that have nothing to do with illness. I certainly don't like this approach but obviously it has been very successful. I doubt Vlad himself would say that hes played this way the last five years just because of illness...he did it because it brought him great reward. No need to make excuses for it.
Third...Why accept the Corus invite when you know full well that it comes on the heels of a stressful Russian Championship? Was this decision prompted by his performance in the super final?
And finally....what to make of Kramniks credo that "I still have many goals to achieve". Reeks of fluff and insincerity to me. He needs to have one responsibility and one goal....preserving the legitmacy of the World Championship and defending his ownership of it. Is there anything more important in all of chess? Illness or not, this is how his behavior should be evaluated. Can we honestly say he has strengthed this institution? History will most likely leave his illness as an asterisk when documenting his caretaking of the crown.
Above and beyond my criticism, I hope to see Kramniks fate as a World Champion decided at the board...I truly hope he can do this in good health.
Bradford - rare word 'arthridity'
Sad that we cannot see another 6-7 place that normally Kramnik occupies.
But who know he might improve and get 8-10 place
World Classical Chess Champ 'til death, I am worried that your title is dwindling to zero and nobody believes in it now. Topalov's title is more convincing while you could only defend your title with 7th in rank with 7-7 score.
Good alibi, however Kramnik. Your alibi sickness would explain your bad performance recently and why you did not play a rematch against Kasparov. I dont know if majority would believe your alibi but I dont.
Kramnik did not lose the title but seem lose respect due to the following reasons;
1. Shirov convincingly beats him in the candidate match but this was forgotten since he beats Kasparov in 2000.
2. Kramnik avoided a rematch against Kasparov regardless the world wants to see a rematch against the best player at that time. Anyway, Kramnik's reason is, he already proved it to himself long ago and he doesnt need to prove it to anybody. Means what we think is not important for him.
He is somewhat right, if he thinks the same way then his title might be regain by Kasparov and it would proved that he beats Kasparov by luck. Then who lose the title you or him. Then the truth might come back that he is not really the right challenger that time. So he is good with this logic.
3. His recent performance proves where he really belongs, 6th in FIDE rank, and consistent 6-7 place in the Super GM tournaments. So he has to produce an alibi that he is ill.
Its pity that Kramnik lost his opportunity to play a rematch against Kasparov. He could take the title 'til death like Alekhine but no one other that those with affinity and consanguinity with him really respects it.
Its better to post your message here because if you do it in www.kramnik.com. If you are talking half-truth it might be posted but if you tell the whole truth against Kramnik, forget it. You will not see it.
Good excuse Vlad. I believe you are psychologically sick now because of your bad performance.
But dont worry you are still the no.7 best player of Russia excluding Kasparov (If Kasparov is there it would be 8 of course).
Anyway, I doubt that you are worried, you clearly said that you have already proven to yourself long ago (remember "long ago!!") and does not need to prove it again to anybody.
Kramnik, World Champion/No. 7 best in Russia. Show them how good you are, make another rematch with the no. 7th in world rank, Leko and beat him again with 7-7 score.
I guess your favorite number 7.
If you do the same thing there as you do here, posting the same stuff repeatedly with different names, I understand why it's been deleted. Pick a name, fewer repetitions, much better. Thanks.
Good excuse Vlad. I believe you are psychologically sick now because of your bad performance.
But dont worry you are still the no.7 best player of Russia excluding Kasparov (If Kasparov is there it would be 8 of course).
Anyway, I doubt that you are worried, you clearly said that you have already proven to yourself long ago (remember "long ago!!") and does not need to prove it again to anybody.
Kramnik, World Champion/No. 7 best in Russia. Show them how good you are, make another rematch with the no. 7th in world rank, Leko and beat him again with 7-7 score.
I guess your favorite number 7.
I did not notice that it was posted twice, sorry sitemaster. It was rejected so i pressed twice. My apology
My best wishes for a successful treatment and returned health to Vladmir Kramnik. He will have to deal with this chronic disease for the rest of his life, and one can only support his taking the time required.
Wow...if that's "much better" I can't imagine what the original looked like.
It was a "that WOULD be much better."
Yes, Kramnik has to deal with his chronic desease for the rest of his life. Very graceful exit should he fail to prove further in the future his bad performance. However, he remains undefeated classical world champion for the rest of his life and had beaten Kasparov, the greatest chess player and never get a rematch because of Kramnik's belief that he is at his own class.
Long ago, I know Tal who was really sick and confined to the hospital because of his kidney desease and that was real, Fischer even visited him in the hospital.
I certainly wish Vladimir Kramnik the best. I am one of his many fans who was won over by his seemingly impossibile feat in London 2000. His hedging play was interesting and beautiful in its own way, and became an important milestone in chess history. His example inspired me to reexamine my own game, and think about chess in new ways.
I hope he is able to enjoy life to the fullest, and perhaps to achieve some of those goals he alluded to. Good luck Vlad!
Kramnik had many great tournament results between 1995-2000. The match in which he shut out Kasparov was a great achievement - especially when we recall that Gary's play in previous matches had tended to deteriorate towards the end due to boredom. An inspiration to us all. It is challenging but by no means impossible to defeat a superior opponent.
Arthritis and/or back pain are serious in a tense sitdown game. No future Kramnik opponent should accept a short draw. Mig was right. It was difficult to make a public confession of such a weakness.
Kramnik did well and earned his retirement from chess. Chess rewarded him and the world beyond chess is full of wonders.
BTW I have generally associated "Coward" with blitheness of spirit and wit. Something is amiss here...
Frank
In a recent interview, World Champion and current strongest player Topalov is interested to play against the Strongest Player he hadn't play "Bobby Fischer".
It would be more interesting.
Probably Kramnik should try a rematch against Alexei Shirov when he gets better in his illness. It would be exciting like a candidate match again. Shirov got a bad tournament recently so it would be a good rematch.
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