NY Mayor's Cup

Comments

I feel like a hypocrite tossing some fresh meat to the anti-Polgar fleas, but the USCF Forums have some back-and-forth sparked by a Paul Truong post that labeled this event "the strongest tournament ever held in the US." (The post in question now reads "the strongest DOUBLE RR", but another commenter indicated the original version didn't have that qualification, and Truong evidently edited his own post to fix it.)

Others cited some competition for the label, "strongest tournament ever held in the US": New York 1924; the Piatigorsky Cup tourneys of the mid-1960s (Fischer, Spassky, Petrosian, et al); Lone Pine (Petrosian, Karpov, et al). And if matches count, then there was Kasparov-Karpov 1990 in New York.

Still the Mayor's Cup is undoubtedly very strong, and Polgar taking clear 2nd behind Kamsky (and ahead of 3 present and former U.S. champions) is hugely impressive.
Posted by: flyonthewall at June 27, 2006 17:17

Well, it was also a two-day rapid with five rounds per day, so it shouldn't be mentioned on the same page as the Piatigorsky.

There's always a problem with making big claims. You end up retracting back to something like "the strongest double round-robin rapid tournament played on a Monday at the New York Athletic Club." At least they didn't call it a world championship. Hoping to see the games.
Posted by: Mig at June 28, 2006 07:02

Speaking for my fellow anti-Polgar fleas, I think what flyonthewall describes neatly encapsulates the sort of thing we complain about.

1. Susan does something pretty cool, which we honestly appreciate.
2. Someone tries to turn it into the best thing that ever happened.
Posted by: jonas at June 28, 2006 07:38

fly, mig, jonas,

Now you've done it. You've awakened the "Polgar Pixie" who will shortly visit this page and post something along the lines of:

"Look at all the wonderful things Susan has done for chess. Who among you has done as much? Why are you criticizing her just because you don't think her event was as great as New York 1924 or the Piatagorsky Cup? Stop picking on her! Give her a break!"
Posted by: greg koster at June 28, 2006 08:18

The official press release by the NYC Sports Commission stated that it is the highest rated RR chess event. The same was stated by the NYAC a month ago. So does the announcement on ChessCafe after the info was verified. The average rating of the event was 2665+ (USCF).

No one from the NYC Sports Commission, the NYAC or ChessCafe has ever compared it to the Piatigorsky Cup. A few other chess players did. These people are proud to host the highest rated RR event ever in NY City and they should have the right to do so.

I was doing 10 million things at once while trying to post a live update on the USCF Forum (per request from someone at the USCF) and 10 other places (since the live relay to ICC and other servers went dead due to the wireless connection problem inside the building - weather related). When someone pointed out the error, it was edited immediately.
Posted by: ChessPromotion at June 28, 2006 08:27

Let me clarify the above posting before someone has a heart attack.

Highest rated RR chess tournament in the US was what they put, not just highest rated chess tournament. They made sure they chose their words very carefully.

Sorry for the confusion.
Posted by: Chess Promotion at June 28, 2006 08:50

I was referring to flyonthewall's comment, which did mention the Piatigorsky. Sorry to hear about the network troubles. When we set up the networks for the Kasparov matches there we insisted on wires and more wires. Of course we had to throw them down from the roof and balconies... Heck, my home wireless network is dodgy enough. Anyway, looked like fun, sorry I missed it. I imagine you're sending a report to Frederic?
Posted by: Mig at June 28, 2006 08:53

Yes, Mig. Frederic will get pics and game scores soon. The President & CEO of ICC was there to set up the tech stuff for broadcast. The wireless kept dying every 30 seconds even though they told us their wireless is VERY dependable. I tried to set things up with my mobile wireless but it didn't go well with the weather either. I have never done this before so it was quite an experience.

Most of the games were decided in the last minute or two. Some even went down to the last seconds. Only 2 games were relatively short to secure 1st place which was a very smart thing to do. Gata clearly was in excellent form. He's da man!

Going into the last round, Gata was leading by a full point. Alex O., Boris and Susan were tied for 2nd. Boris lost to Ildar with Black. Alex O. drew Gata with Black and Susan defeated Stripunsky with Black.

Gata and Alex Onischuk played very very well. Alex O. was the only player not to lose a single game. He was a little unlucky because he could have won another few games. He is amazing! I'm a big fan! Boris was great but got tired at the end. Alex Stripunsky played for win every game and it backfired this time. Ildar was just unlucky because he did play a lot better.

Susan missed clear wins against Boris and Alex S. in the first half and escaped with a draw against Alex Onischuk in round 9. She had many very difficult games as she's clearly still very rusty. She had luck on her side lately. She scored 4 wins, 3 losses, 6 draws in the last 13 official rapid games (against GMs) in the last 10 days against oppositions of about 2660-2670 (USCF).

The games went back and forth and the fighting spirit was incredibly strong throughout the entire tournament. We wish we could invite Hikaru to make the event even stronger. Unfortunately, he participated in the last Mayor's Cup and they prefer to see all new players.

Everyone really appreciates Gata, Boris, Ildar and the 2 Alex participating in this event!
Posted by: Chess Promotion at June 28, 2006 10:19

Great tournament, but worst excuse ever to not invite Hikaru!
Posted by: Greg Shahade at June 28, 2006 13:23

Perhaps, because it was a rapids event, the organizers were on barnrumpa alert.

But the real shame is that in the next Mayor's Cup event, where they'll want all new players, we'll not see "old" players Susan Polgar, Kamsky, Onischuk, Gulko, etc.
Posted by: greg koster at June 28, 2006 13:36

ChessPromotion,
Nice tournament!I couldn't find info about prizes?
Posted by: RRM at June 28, 2006 13:53

Chess Promotion ,
Nice tournament!I couldn't find info about prizes?
Posted by: RRM at June 28, 2006 13:56

Greg, that was the decision that was made by the organizers and sponsors. A substantial amount of money was put aside for this event and that is their wishes. Specific criteria was used to come up with the 6 potential invitees and those were the first 6 names that came up. It has to do with ratings, place of residence, current title holder(s), past invitation(s), etc. Hikaru was the 7th name on the list. Hikaru was also invited in past events.

RRM, the prize funds were not announced to the public. All players received a minimum guarantee + final placements. These players were true professionals in every sense. The NYAC also provided lunches and refreshments for the players, arbiters and VIPs.

Susan was the only who did not receive any money even though she was the chief organizer. She donated her entire 2nd place prize to the Susan Polgar Foundation to help organize the Governor's Cup with Governor Pataki in the fall.
Posted by: ChessPromotion at June 28, 2006 14:30

Chief organizer Susan Polgar and the other organizers are within their rights to omit Nakamura. They paid the piper, they call the tune.
Posted by: greg koster at June 28, 2006 15:05

"Greg, that was the decision that was made by the organizers and sponsors."

But Susan Polgar *is* the organizer, and I believe the foundation that she controls is the principal sponsor. Since she also played in the event, it is reasonable to ask, "Why these rules?" What kind of tournament would Melody-Amber be if return visits weren't allowed?
Posted by: Marc Shepherd at June 28, 2006 17:33

Susan was the chief organizer. That means that she came up with the idea, spent 3 months to raise funding, got the NYAC, the NYC Sports Commissioner, the Mayor's Office and many other people (sponsors for example) involved. They are part of the organizing committee and the request from a number of these people to invite 1st time players (IF POSSIBLE) was not unreasonable.

There were a number of sponsors that donated money to the SPF to organize this event and most agreed with the same concept. There are many good Grandmasters in the NY / Tri-state area and they wanted to give more Grandmasters a chance to participate.

Did I say that players are not allowed to play again? I said the the sponsors and organizers preferred to see new players. That's why Hikaru was #7 on the potential list. Kamsky was invited because he is #1 on the rating list. Susan was invited because she is #1 on the women's side. Onischuk was invited because he is the reigning US champion. Those were the obvious three choices. Then other criteria are used for the remaining 3 spots.

If we have to start the event over again, these are still the same first 6 players the organizers and sponsors would have invited and they were nothing but professional about their business.
Posted by: Chess Promotion at June 28, 2006 18:10

Dear Chess Promotion (Paul Troung),

Let me start by saying that it is quite admirable that such an event was held at such a prestigious venue with sponsorship and the backing of the NYC Sports Commissioner and the NYC Mayor's Office.

Having said that, I find it quite incredulous that you claim to have invited me to previous rapid events, when I have no recollection of this.

I think it says a lot about American chess when a tournament billed as "the highest rated American chess event" tournament just happens to be all Russians; quite an oddity, don't you think?

P.S. In the future, please post with your real name.

Regards,
Hikaru Nakamura

Posted by: Hikaru Nakamura at June 29, 2006 00:15

Dear Chess Promotion (Paul Troung),

Let me start by saying that it is quite admirable that such an event was held at such a prestigious venue with sponsorship and the backing of the NYC Sports Commissioner and the NYC Mayor's Office.

Having said that, I find it quite incredulous that you claim to have invited me to previous rapid events, when I have no recollection of this.

I think it says a lot about American chess when a tournament billed as "the highest rated American chess event" tournament just happens to be all Russians; quite an oddity, don't you think?

P.S. In the future, please post with your real name.

Regards,
Hikaru Nakamura

Posted by: Hikaru Nakamura at June 29, 2006 00:15

If you are going to talk about high rated matches on American soil (ala Kasparov-Karpov 1990), I seem to recall a match played in one of the World Trade Center towers between Kasparov and, um, Vishy something-or-other.
Posted by: Superpatzer at June 29, 2006 00:47

Another high-rated match on American soil: Lasker-Marshall 1907.
I also wonder why GM Nakamura considers Susan a Russian.
Posted by: Charles Milton Ling at June 29, 2006 00:57

Hi,

On the new www.uschess.org, launching on June 30 Friday there will be a long report on the Mayor's Cup, including games, pictures and comments from Kamsky.

Cheers,
Jennifer Shahade
Posted by: Jennifer at June 29, 2006 01:26

For such an event you'd invite
--the organizer herself
--the U.S. Champ
--the highest-rated U.S. player

But with three slots remaining, why wouldn't any organizer or sponsor invite the second highest-rated American, the rising star of American chess, a GM with a reputation for strong rapid-play?

Because he might overshadow Susan?
Because they think he's a barnrumpa?
Posted by: greg koster at June 29, 2006 05:38

Google reveals only 943 hits for 'barnrumpa' of which the top non-dictionary site is .. Chessninja.

It seems to mean something like 'spoiled child' (in Swedish).

Do all chess players know this word, as they know zugzwang or patzer?

Anyway, Russian and Hungarian are sort of the same, like Chinese and Japanese.
Posted by: gg at June 29, 2006 05:52

The literal meaning is childs bum; if I were to explain the meaning I would just say it means (somewhat derogatory) "not grown up (yet)".

Q
Posted by: Quely at June 29, 2006 06:57

Hmm...perhaps chess lexicologists could make a note to add 'barnrumpa' to the glosary / dictionary of chess terms.

Seriously, for those who missed it, the word has become something of an 'in-joke' at Chessninja ever since this year's Olympiad when a Swedish publication used it to describe some young player's behavior during one Olympiad game (I think it was Nakamura who got tagged that way, but don't quote me). The original article, in Swedish, got linked here and then lots of people found the word 'barnrumpa' cute and started repeating it.
Posted by: flyonthewall at June 29, 2006 10:16

Did we ever find out what spoiled-child-type conduct Nakamura was alleged to have engaged in?
Posted by: greg koster at June 29, 2006 10:31

Hikaru...just wanted to say I like your style. You seem to be a bit controversial in some of these threads, BUT you are honest and frank in your post above which I, for one, appreciate.
Posted by: Todd C. Reynolds at June 29, 2006 11:05

I agree Todd. Also this forum is (for me at least) a rare opportunity to interact with celebrities. If we insult and push them away, its only our fault. Being from Michigan, we dont see alot of elite players (Ben Finegold being the exception) up here so its kind of cool to have Hikaru and the rest respond to a question or comment that I might have.
Posted by: Tony West at June 29, 2006 12:17

You know, I find it highly insulting that GM Brynell would go and say such rubbish. The very fact that I was shaking my head during the game because I was displeased with the outcome makes me some sort of stupid fool? If anyone has ever seen a GM who didn't shake their head during a single game, I'll buy them a free latte. :)
Posted by: Hikaru Nakamura at June 29, 2006 13:15

Tony, if you like interacting with chess celebrities, and you also enjoy PLAYING chess, then you should spring for a ICC membership if you haven't already. Loads of titled players including Hikaru regularly take on all comers there, both 1-on-1 (usually in 5-minute) and in simuls (with slow time controls). In 3 months there I must have played games with at least a dozen GMs (probably more like 2 dozen), and several dozen IMs.

Does anyone know if they get paid for this? I always assumed that ICC was paying them (the GMs at least; probably the IMs too) to play with us patzers. But I noticed that when Chess Life just asked Onischuk if he plays online, he said no, I'm professional, I have no time to waste playing online blitz with amateurs. Well, duh, I didn't think Nakamura and all the other GMs were doing it for the fun of it. But maybe I was wrong.
Posted by: flyonthewall at June 29, 2006 13:20

Hey flyonthewall,

Actually, hard as it is to believe, most titled players on ICC do play for fun. Some players, like me, do get paid for doing simuls and time odds; however, I do not get paid to play blitz. I simply play on ICC to entertain the general masses.
Posted by: Hikaru Nakamura at June 29, 2006 13:39

Boy, "Chess Promotion" sure got awful quiet.
Posted by: Todd C. Reynolds at June 29, 2006 14:44

Its ok, everyone knows Hikaru is pretty weak at faster time controls, they probably wanted to save him from embarrassment!
Posted by: Greg Shahade at June 29, 2006 14:51

Sometimes you'll see organizers in a country invite a young local talent to a tournament so that he or she may get experience or at least some money. I guess organizers in the USA don't feel the same way. I'm not even sure it's so much about helping chess-youth as it is garnering interest in the tournament: some people might be interested in how the youth fares against the adults. Personally I'd like to see some injection of youth and hopefully get some attacks out of it. But it's the organizer's call. It'd be nice to have complete transparency in the selection process however, to see how everything calculated out to get those 6 players.
Posted by: superfreaky at June 29, 2006 15:50

Just to be annoying, I'll point out the Onischuk is a Ukrainian name and that Alexander's last fed before USA was UKR. So he's not Russian either, unless we're talking about "Greater Russia".

I think Greg Shahade's remark above is facetious. Hikaru is very good at fast chess, and if almost all of the games were decided in the last two minutes ... it is possible that he might have done very well ... and enjoyed doing so.

In Scotland, a child is a "bairn", so the Nordic word barnrumpa almost needs no translation. I'll donate another phrase, seen on the catamaran Victoria Clipper, which I believe was built in Norway. "Brann Slange", which I believe means fire hose, could be the name of a variation against the Dragon. I won't say a winning variation, because there is no such thing, but maybe one that takes the fire out of Black's play. There are many variations waiting for a name, here's a name waiting for a variation: Brann Slange.

Say, I noticed in the tournament snapshot on Susan's blog that Jim Berry and Frank Berry were the arbiters. In the photo they look like twins. Are they? I don't think they are long-lost relatives, though you never know. I am not related to Stephen or Neil or David Berry. Way too many Berry people in chess. I think I'll change my name. How about Alex Garcia Ivanov? Grin.
Posted by: Jonathan Berry at June 29, 2006 15:52

Did Ken Berry play chess? Larry Storch? Frank DeKova?
Posted by: greg koster at June 29, 2006 17:25

We all know that Nakamura is good at speed chess. But it the organizer's right to invite whom for whatever reasons they may have, with or without justification to the public. Naka shouldn't be upset at not being invited. Every tournament has its own purposes, if not inviting you fits the bill, you are not invited. There shouldn't be much to discuss on this topic.
Posted by: Morning at June 29, 2006 19:50

We all know that Nakamura is good at speed chess. But it the organizer's right to invite whom for whatever reasons they may have, with or without justification to the public. Naka shouldn't be upset at not being invited. Every tournament has its own purposes, if not inviting you fits the bill, you are not invited. There shouldn't be much to discuss on this topic.
Posted by: Morning at June 29, 2006 19:50

Let's confine our Nakamura comments to what has actually been posted. I don't see that Mr. Nakamura objected to not being invited to the Mayor's Cup. Rather, he disputed a claim that he had been invited to "past [presumably Polgar-organized?] events". I note that Mr. Truong has not replied.
Posted by: geeker at June 29, 2006 20:54

Of course organizers have the right to choose which players they want with or without justification to the public. I'm unfamiliar with US law but I think protection from discrimination only applies to full-time jobs, so organizers can even discriminate based on race if they wanted. A claim has been made that the decision was based on a set of calculations. It's up to them if they want to show how their algorithm came up with those six players. It's my opinion that Nakamura was particularly singled out. And I won't believe otherwise until I see the how those six players were calculated. It just seems suspicious to me to omit Nakamura, and I'm sure many others feel the same. But that's just me and the organizers don't have to prove themselves to me. They don't have to prove themselves to anyone, especially if no one questions.
Posted by: superfreaky at June 29, 2006 21:23

This is the 4th time that I replied to the above question by GM Nakamura. Unfortunately, I got this same message each time:

The Daily Dirt Chess Blog
Insider news and views from chess writer Mig Greengard
Thank you for commenting.
Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner.
Posted by: Chess Promotion at June 29, 2006 21:29

Since it went through this time, I will repost (and modify a little) what I posted this morning since there are many posts since then:

Hikaru,

A. This is the Mayor's Cup. You were invited and participated in the last Mayor's Cup Invitational. If you check the NYC Sports Commission website, it has a link there right now of the last event. I never said that I invited you to rapid events even though I did.

B. You were also invited to the USA - St. Petersburg 2-game RAPID match in Nashville, TN which originally included Svidler, Khalifman, Sakaev, etc. You initially accepted the invitation then cancelled.

C. You participated and did well in 2 very prestigious International events which I personally recommended you to the organizer who is a dear friend of mine. This is the same organizer who just spent over $1 million to organize an incredible event next year. I was asked to be a part of this organizing committee.

D. I will not discuss the "all Russians" comment. I like you and respect your chess talent. My sincere advice to you is never to repeat this sentence.

E. Chess Promotion is my handle for posting. I post with the same handle on the US Chess and FIDE forum. It is not a secret.

The criteria used for invitations include ratings, place of residence, current title holder(s), past invitation(s), etc. and not just rating itself which you would have made easily.

You are a great player. I wish you the best with your chess career.
Posted by: Chess Promotion at June 29, 2006 21:37

This is my last posting regarding this topic. I do not want to be unfair to the organizers and sponsors who put in a lot of time, money and effort to put this event together and to the players who gave it their all in the tournament.

It is unfortunate that instead of focusing on the success of Gata Kamsky, we waste time discuss wild and baseless speculations.

Congratulations to Gata Kamsky for a magnificent result!
Posted by: Chess Promotion at June 29, 2006 21:52

Hi to all,
I'd like to say that Paul truong / susan Polgar make great efforts to make chess popular and manage to create/organize lots of events, youth and professional ones. The Mayor's cup is another great addition.

This being said, GM Nakamura is an exceptional player, last year US champ, and unbelievably convincing and entertaining on ICC and playchess.com.
I admire his rapid play, and lots of people follow him as well for the same reason.
He also performed very very well in the recent olympiad , in particular again the "russian" Grischuk.
given the fact that he lives in White plains, that he belongs to the world top 20 in rapid chess, and that he is a former US champion and member of the US team, I find it hard to believe he didnt meet the requirements for the Mayor's cup and understand fully his disappointment.

I have witnesses many quick games Kamsky-Naka ( i.e Talion-Smallville) on ICC , and they were highly disputed and entertaining, and every champ had wins against the other ones.
Chess gains when these two players play against each other.

Cheers.
Posted by: franck at June 29, 2006 22:25

Heh, I don't mind not getting invited at all...I can do other things with my weekends. :) On another note, spectators love to see exciting and entertaining chess, and I find it hard to believe that any of the others players can provide that at rapid chess with the exception of Gata and maybe Alex O.

To Todd,Franck, and others, thank you for the nice comments and thanks for keeping it real.

P.S. To clarify my "Russian" remark, I was referring to the broader Russia or former Soviet Union. I hope that in the future American chess talents like Josh Friedel, Elliot Liu, and Ray Robson have the chances to play in top flight tournaments. The least we can do is give chances to our best talents here in America.
Posted by: Hikaru Nakamura at June 29, 2006 23:58

If you are an immigrant and have been conferred American citzenship then I think you have the same rights as an American although I do believe you cannot run for president. There may be other differences but I'm unaware of them. I do know that the Soviets had their own training system for physics students and the Americans had their own too: Soviets read Landau, Americans read Kip, Thorton, Wheeler. How come a Russian did not read a Russian translation of Kip, Thorton, Wheeler, and an American did not read an American translation of Landau? The same laws of physics apply to both people. I think one of the reasons may have been that the Russians felt their system of education was not only superior but also distinctly Russian. Same with the Americans. I guess the reason I'm saying all this is that I believe one of the reasons chess is not so popular in the U.S. is because while Americans will view immigrants who are citizens as American (the debate on national immigration policy may shed doubt on that however), if they gained their abilities elsewhere, then they might not view it as a success that grew out of an American system. So in their view: hurray that an American is successful, but not a hurray that the success came out of an American system. Also one-on-one playground basketball which emphasizes athleticism is associated as an American style and team-oriented gymnasium basketball which emphasizes team skills is associated as a European style.
Posted by: superfreaky at June 30, 2006 01:01

A manager can do wonders for a career. I bet someone like Mig would be an excellent manager for certain young talents (helping them avoid PR landmines etc.)
Posted by: Bill Brock - Chicago at June 30, 2006 03:10

Agreed a manager helps. But how much does 10% of nothing pay? In other words, full-blown PR/press agent types would probably be too expensive for all but a handful of players. Re. the Mig suggestion, it might create a conflict of interest with his chess journalism ;-) (another lucrative field, no doubt).
Posted by: geeker at June 30, 2006 12:47

Hikaru,
You must realize that there are still people out there today who also don't count you as a "real" American because of your skin color and birth place, so perhaps it's not the best idea to be complaining about "Russians."
Posted by: g at June 30, 2006 16:17

10% of nothing? Topalov has a good shot at more than $2MM/year for 5+ years....

It's labor-intensive, but not a full-time gig.
Posted by: Bill Brock - Chicago at June 30, 2006 16:49

Check out an article on the Mayor's Cup on the new USCF website!http://beta.uschess.org/frontend/news_7_59.php

Reports coming this long weekend on the World Open.

Feel free to send me comments on the new site.

Cheers,
Jennifer Shahade
Posted by: Jennifer Shahade at June 30, 2006 21:42

after this long debate, what about going back to chess ?
I am looking forward to see what will happen in the next North East big tournament, the World Open in Philly .
Will the big guns show up in the 3 day schedule ?

Anyone on this forum playing the open and reporting from the scene ?

Franck
Posted by: franck at June 30, 2006 22:20

This year's Mayor's Cup was promoted as the "highest rated" rr. Will this event
actually be USCF and/or FIDE rated?
Posted by: Cyclone at July 1, 2006 10:51

USCF dual rated, yes. FIDE, no.
Posted by: Chess Promotion at July 1, 2006 15:40

g,

Let's not bring skin color into the discussion, as the skin color of the participants has never been mentioned by anyone or anything.
Posted by: superfreaky at July 1, 2006 20:54