Taking the Piss (BladderGate 2)

Chess shouldn't be a professional sport. It lacks professionalism

Yeah, wishful thing Mig. Topalov has got what he wanted; a free point and a win in the mind games department. I think Kramnik will forfeit the match. Topalov is a disgrace and should be treated like a pariah from this point onwards.

“FIDE shall provide a rest room and toilette for the players during the WCC match in the playing hall and close to the stage (if possible backstage) to be equipped with a live monitor furnished with coffee and tea as well as with light refreshments.”
Obviously it means a rest room and toilette for each player. If you say it could mean common toilette, then it would also mean common rest room.

Yes, perhaps too wishful thinking I'm afraid. Since Kramnik is now also demanding all of the members of the Appeals Committee to be dismissed and replaced there really isn't any easy way out.

This is a test for FIDE as well, right? As the only "good thing" they had achieved was this unification match.

Mig, it may be wishful thinking. But I'm happy you're taking this stand. Thank you.

The fact is that Kramnik forfeited the 5th game because he didn't wish to share a toilet with Topalov. I wonder if Kramnik will be happy when history writes down this unfortunate turn of events.

Good for Kramnik. The WC should be settled on the board, not by trying to win psychological chits through creating a circus off the board.

No, the fact is that Kramnik refused to play under conditions he and his opponent didn't agree beforehand.
The match conditions were legally binding and if you just change them without really good reason, the contract is no longer legally binding to either part.

No Giannis, it's Topalov who didn't want Kramnik to use private bathroom

The contract which Hensel is claiming talks about a single toilet, not a toilet for each player. Read carefully Marc...

"Well, this isn't funny anymore." Finally, Mig woke up to the gravity of the situation. Did he think Danailov's brain games (remember the Kasparov-Ponomarov match?) had no consquences??

Why should Kramnik have to deal with this new arrangemnt hours before a game? Maybe he does need to use the washroom frequently and doesn't want to use the same washroom Topalov just took a big dump in!

None of this matters. The fact is they had a contract and FIDE BREACHED it. The players confirmed the conditions after this contract was signed. Both sides orally agreed to the conditions. You no longer need to go back to the writing.

For example lets say I sign a contract to build a house with brown bricks for you. It then appears that the brown bricks will take 3 weeks to be delivered but there are red bricks in stock. You and I both go over and see the bricks and you say to go ahead and build the house with the red bricks. We don't put this in writing nor do we change the written contract. Guess what you have no right to insist I tear down the red brick house and rebuild with brown.

The same happened here. Both teams looked at the conditions were well aware of them and agreed to them. Now mid match they want to change the agreemnt! You can't do that unless both sides agree to the change. Its really simple but FIDE just doesn't get it.

Not only that they tried to play hardball with the champion and force him to accept it or forfeit hours before a game!!! If Kramnik played would he be focused on the game or how unfair this is? This is a dirty rotten stunt!

The two combatants sharing the one toilet? Give me a break!

No matter what the outcome Kramnik stands on the side of right and is a winner in all cases. As for Topalov - even if the match was continued (and he 'won it')his name would be stained for a while - as it should. So actually today Topalov already lost....and lost a lot more than just the title...He lost the prestige he may have had before. Tough to get that back.

Anyway...
1) this match is held in Russia
2) Kramnik is russian
2) Putin did put a lot of pressure to see this match come true, and also gave all the money for the organization and the prize fund
4) Kirsan's power is totally in Putin's hands
5) Any tribunal in Russia will be in favor of Kramnik, especially in this situation
6) Kirsan is playing with fire, he may loose more than what he'd imagine with this latest "trick"...

Kramnik is right to simply refuse to stand for arbitrary changes to match conditions that he doesn't agree to.

The whole point of the contract talks before the match is to prevent this kind of bs.

Will a moral victory be enough if FIDE decides to forfeit the match to Topalov? I would like to think it would be, but with so many GM's willing to call Topa WC because he won a tournament, it seems clear that that is wishfull thinking on my part.

I predict that this is the death of match play deciding the WC. Which means, of course, that we no longer will have a WC that means anything more than the yearly tourney winner. They might as well just randomly select a top-25 rated player and declare them WC, that way they can save the expense of putting on the tournament.

I agree that Topalov is the moral loser here, even if the Appeals Committee happens to have handed him a symbolic victory.

The result of Game 5: 1.KxP 0-1 (Kramnik takes pee).

"The rest of it is aggro and distraction about favoritism".

So it doesn't matter that members of the Appeals Committee are buddy-buddy with one of the managers? That they even have shared business interests (the Radjabov-Topalov match) which may explain their strange decisions?

You got to be kidding.

There is already one moral winner of this match: Vladimir Kramnik. If Topalov accepts that point not won over the board he is the opposite of a sportsman.

This just pisses me off...no pun intended.

I remember as a kid staying up late to watch Shelby Lyman on pbs cover K v. K. It was so much fun to try and guess the moves...now everybody sits there w/ their chess engines in the bathroom and computer chips in their heads...geesh.

Here is an article I found through Google about the declining state of chess in the 90's and Mr. Lyman not being able to get anyone interested in supporting a new program (ahh the good ole days):

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CEFDE173FF932A25753C1A966958260

Am I missing something? Kramnik's beef is with the decision of the Appeals Committee, not with Topalov. How is Topalov at fault here? He raised an issue through the proper channels and the Appeals Committee agreed with him. Why would Kramnik "give" him the game and put the result of the match in question? By the way, I would find 50 trips to a private bathroom in 1 game suspicious too.

Mike,
Topalov is at fault because as the player he has final responsibility for the actions taken by his team on his behalf.

His team raised a stupid issue. Everyone knew how stupid it was. But for some unfathomable reason, the appeals committee took it seriously and changed the previously agreed to conditions of the match without Kramnik's consent -- thus voiding the contractual obligation Kramnik has to this match.

Topalov is responsible, solely, for these events.

You miss a lot, Mike. For example that third statement from Topalov's team about shaking hands etc.

David and Marc:
So the appeals committee agrees with Topalov, but you two have decided his issues are stupid, and Kramnik decides he should forfeit the next game. Makes sense?

What is sad today is how it gives victory to the many sandbagging swindlers with whom we all come into contact ... those who don't have the talent to win over the board and so need to resort to psychological measures just so long as they get the almighty point on the score sheet.

In case you haven't noticed, Mike, it is not just those two. It is just about every sane person on the planet who thinks Topalov's team and FIDE are off their rockers.

Topalov said in the press conference after game 2 that he stands losing well ...

Apparently he does not have the same class ... on and off the board

I can't believe what scumbags Topalov and his buddies in FIDE are. I really can't.

Chess engine in bathroom vs. chess chip in head.

May the best chip win.

17:45h: Kramnik appeared at the Marko's press conference and made a statement. Here are a few exerpts from it:

"Makropolous and Azmaiparashvili are very good friends of Danailov. Their actions are clearly biased in favor of Topalov. The decision to grant Danailov full access to videotapes is incorrect and outrageous. I did not sign the contract for acting in a reality show. This goes against all ethical norms and violates my privacy.

I am ready to continue the match and play the 5th game tomorrow on the conditions that were accepted prior to the start of the match. My dignity does not allow me to stand this situation. Now I am going to return to my cottage and rest."

17:50h: Savinov: "I have no idea how the situation will develop, but the atmosphere is very tense. Kirsan Ilyumzhinov is in Sochi with Russian President Vladimir Putin right now, so he can hardly intervene..."
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3375

FIDE's ability to think logically has declined to a state where tomorrow they might even ask Kramnik to share the bed with Topalov!

-Amit

Exactly what about FIDE's decision do you guys find unfair? Making the men no longer use private rest rooms is petty, but so is forfeiting a game over having to use a common one.

Give it a day before Putin and Zhukov hold Kirsan's feet over open fire.

If the match gets cancelled, it may be the best thing that happened to chance. I prefer Kramnik and FIDE have a huge conflict than to have Kramnik give his title to FIDE on a silver platter.

Kramnik has proven Classical World championship's superiority to whatever joke FIDE clowns keep calling FIDE WC(hehe) - not only has he proven it at the board, but also off the board. Now if Kramnik split with FIDE and organized a match against Anand in a year or two, that may be the best thing that can happen to chess. Clearly, FIDE is too much of a circus for Kramnik to give them the control of the World championship.

Looking on the bright side, at least it will result in some mainstream press coverage for chess. Any publicity is good publicity?

knight_tour:
Imagine you are playing at a local tournament and your opponent visits the bathroom after EVERY move, 50 times in the game. Are you not suspicious? Would you not mention it to the TD? And if the TD ruled in your favor, would you then be the villain for raising the issue?

ROFLMAO Amit!!!

Topa is behaving like Mike Tyson and may even chew Kramnik;s ear, if they hold another game

-Amit

mig i dont understand why should topalov be ashamed. sure the bulgarians maybe werent totaly fair but hey thats a part of chess too. fischer behaved much worse in his match against spasski but today everybody talks only how he outplayed him. and what about karpov-korchnoi? all kind of ridicolous protests but they never walked away from a game.

gilles,

"i dont understand why should topalov be ashamed"

lemme help you there:

He's down two -nil and starts "all kind of ridicolous protests"

Do you know what is the plague of modern sports?
MANAGERS.They are parasites who do not produce anything, are not useful at anything and they benefit (a lot) from other people's labour. One more illustration of my general remark is today's very disappointing incidence. For the whole story is an unsuccessful stratigical plot of Danailov. Frustrated that his client will lose the game and subsequently the world title he deviced this whole ridiculous conspirancy theory. Of course the whole plot is not only immoral but, additionaly, quite stupid, because it gave Kramnik the advantage. For Kramnik wins 3-1 and if he gaves up, he knows well that on people's mind, he would be the legitimate World Champion. Now he has two options: either to just give up the match (without any real consequences for him because everyone will justify him) or to negotiate hard...In any case he is up.

It is pretty shame that such a great player (Topalov) is influenced by well-dressed parasite.

"I dont understand why should Topalov be ashamed."

Well, for me the "I won't shake hands" bit takes the cake. He filed a protest, and the Appeals Committee ruled partially in his favour. At that point, you shake hands and continue playing (assuming your opponent makes an appearance at the board).

What I really can't understand is that Topalov needed to resort to such tactics. He is a slow starter and was expected to do much better in the second half. Obviously Kramnik had psyched him out and he doesn't feel like he has any chance to win by normal means. Once your opponent needs to play games off the board, you know that he doesn't think he can beat you fair and square. He has lost all respect. I admired him as a player and his remarks when Kasparov retired, but his behaviour since has been going downhill and is now Fischeresque (that is not a compliment...)

FIDE is a disgrace and I hope that Kramnik will be able to play Anand and then run a world championship cycle maybe with the support of Bessel Kok and the ACP.

Mike, it has already been proven that Kramnik visited the bathroom nowhere near 50 times. If Topalov's team wanted to complain, they should have done so privately. Going public like this is a sham and a shame.

Amit is right to compare this situation with Tyson-Hoyfield. Just as Tyson bit down to escape a beating, so Danailov and his posse are trying to finesse their way out of the match to save their client's ass. And they don't care if Kramnik takes the moral high ground, it seems to mean nothing to them. But if they fail to bring down the big man this way, look for Mehmet Ali Agca to join the Topalov team over the weekend.

Yuri
Even if we don't consider that it is unfair to unilaterally change the terms of a contract - otherwise known as breaching it - it is unfair to force Kramnik to accpet the breach hours before he plays a game! Its a distraction and when you need to concentrate so hard under such huge pressure the organizers should not be distracting players.

How abnout this? Lets start renegotiating our contract a few hours before the game starts! Lets have our little puppet Topalov smuggly hit the chess clock while you decide whether or not to accept our new terms! This is BS beyond belief!

well kasparov didnt shake hands with shirov, karpov didnt shake hands with korchnoi. fischer was behaving like a jerk with spasski.
so topalov is just doing what Fischer, Karpov, Kasparov and others have been doing before him. if anything i blame him that he's not original...

C'mon guys. Topalov is Fischer on new millennium.

They already issued 5 complaints

Sept.22 - First breach of the contract by FIDE on the request of Mr. Topalov. The agreed live monitors have been removed from rest rooms as well as the shower cabines in the bath rooms. The moves are provided on demonstration boards only.

Sept.24
Topalov's request to participate in rest room security checks, to close window, and to restrict access to rest rooms was accepted; reasonable and legitimate, IMHO.

Sept.28 - Second breach of the contract by FIDE by Topalov's request.
http://www.veselintopalov.net/article/scandal
Tapes released to Topalov, bathroom rules changed without Kramnik acceptance.

Sept.29
http://www.veselintopalov.net/article/mr-silvio-danailov-unhappy
Topalov issues a new request:
- to release tapes to journalists;
- to place watchers in rest rooms and to provide players help from an assistant arbiter during their visits to bathroom. Can't Topalov unzip himself? May be, his arms are shaking too much and he worries he can miss the opening?
Also, Topalov shows his "respect" to FIDE by agreeing to play, and obviously f%cks Kramnik up refusing to shake his hand without explanation.

Isn't this enough?

Any fans of Topalov left here?

I speak as a person who has on one occasion grabbed a TD after my opponent took his 4th bathroom break in a G/60 (short) game. The reason I did that was because I did not have confidence that the organizers established adequate safeguards against the increasingly refined "quick runs to his hotel room" or the more notorious "PDAs in a bathroom stall" techniques of this day.

But this is the fripping World Championship!!!

Assuming that you can get away with cheating at such a venue borders on delusion and Topalov's team is better accused of creating tension and upsetting Kramnik than genuine paranoia.

If we, as lowly mortals who pretend to play good chess (with varying degrees of success) can learn to tolerate that 7-year old kid who kicks you under the table and slams the pieces, I think a person of Kramnik's stature should grow a pair and not react to this cheapshot so much.

Toiletgate may be despicable, but in the end, Topalov (and his team) are taking advantage of a "weakness" they perceive in Kramnik's frame of mind ... it may not be on the board, but I think
it still counts when there's money on the table ... or am I so wrong to assume this game is not a battle of nerves?

What is this? " Kirsan Ilyumzhinov is in Sochi with Russian President Vladimir Putin right now,"

Mr. Putin is known to his radical actions. I wonder what is going to be Putin's reaction to this... he might want to be the hero saving the games.

A small paradox: mr. Putin is the best hope for chess and Garry Kasparov is the best hope for Russia.

Maybe they should replace Topalov's and Kramnik's chairs with potties.

The players won't have to leave the table and this will add a whole new dimension to the game!

This is an outrage, pure and simple. Chess World Championships have a history of bad behaviour and dirty psychological tricks, and this is certainly among the worst. It's an absolute travesty. Who the hell do these morons think they are, playing games with the kingship of chess like this? To some of us, chess is very important, and the World Championship is something we take very seriously and is very important to us.

I've always said that I admired Topalov, his play is very exciting, playing long games with few short draws is excellent for chess right now, and all that. He's brilliant. But now I hate his guts, and will forever. He needs to get rid of Danailov, and play out this match. It is clear that all of this was cooked up to try to save him from finishing out and losing the match straight up.

This just in....

When Silvio Danailov was asked is this all he got? He responded vigorously in the negative. “By observing the tapes, I have also calculated the rate of discharge of Mr. Kramnik and we (me and our parapsychologist) believe that this is in some sort of violation, we just have to figure that part out”, was quoted in the PTime.

Well, I started this match wanting Topalov to win, but now I think it would be sweet justice if Kramnik resumed play at game 6 and still won. FIDE should have more spine and tell their man to wind his neck in or forfeit the match and title.

Another serious issue. If such claims can be done in a world championship match, where there is the money and technology to protect the integrity of the game from cheating, what can be done to everyday tournaments and championships, we ,the amateur, participate?

From now on, would i be suspect everytime i go to the bathroom??

Or ,on the other hand, anyone will easily cheat by just visiting the bathroom?

It is a real nightmare and another manifestation that computers ,really, damage chess.

How would you feel if Kramnik comes back tomorrow, and Topalov sirs down at this 6th game (with score 3-2 Kramnik), plays 1. d4 and then resigns? Score now 4-2 Kramnik...

Topalov is losing the battle of public sentiment, big time. He needs to make a gesture that shows, above all, he values chess, and not a hollow championship, which is what it will be, if he wins by default.

Kramnik's manager issued this statement:

"Mr. Kramnik will not return to the chess board until the video cameras are removed from the bathrooms."

When asked whether Kramnik was being unduly stubborn, he replied:

"Sometimes, a man's gotta poo what a man's gotta poo."

Is it JUST ME or has our esteemed leader Kirsan been curiously absent from all that is taking place?

You can bet QUEENS to PAWNS that if Kramnik pulled this BS fiasco on Topalov, Kirsan would be interdicting faster than Daddy on Prom night.

Way to go, Kirsan. Another example of fine leadership at it's best.

Bessel Kok looks better every day....

Mig,

No chance this match will restart. If they attempt to remove the forfeit, Topalov will claim that it was a scheme by Kramnik to get another rest day, which he desperately needs to avoid getting worn down. No way Topalov will agree to giving back his forfeited point.

Both players should be ashamed of themselves. Chess desperately needs a great championship match and the first two games gave us hope. This is yet another black, black mark on a sport that cannot afford another one.

There is a clear solution that will solve the cheating problem, make chess more interesting to the spectator, and at the same time promote women's chess. Make everyone play naked and install videocams in all the bathroom stalls.

Niceforkinmove,

The contract, according to Kramnik's release states: “FIDE shall provide a rest room and toilette for the players during the WCC match in the playing hall and close to the stage (if possible backstage) to be equipped with a live monitor furnished with coffee and tea as well as with light refreshments.” It never specifies that the players are to have separate private bathrooms or that those are to be connected to their rest rooms. I don't know if coffee and tea have been replaced with hot cocoa (which perhaps we should consider a significant enough reason to abandon the match as well), but Mig already points out above that the new policy does not violate this.

Changing where you have to do your duty is not a significant distraction. It's a petty reason to pull out of a match.

The only change that FIDE instituted:

"To close both the toilets in the players' rest rooms and to open another toilet that will be available only to the two players."

But here's what I don't understand (directed to the Topalov-is-scum crowd). You didn't become convinced that Topalov was scum when Danailov made his complaints. People make crazy complaints in World Championship matches all the time. If the Appeals Committee had turned down the complaints completely, you wouldn't be upset at Topalov. For that matter, if Kramnik had gone along with the one-bathroom decision of the Appeals Committee, you wouldn't be so upset at Topalov. And if Kramnik had said "I will play the next two games with one bathroom under protest, but after that I will walk out unless I get my way," this would all be under negotiation still and you wouldn't be so upset at Topalov.

But what happened is that Team Kramnik raised the stakes by saying "The entire Appeals Committee must be replaced instantly, or I won't play game 5"; and then Kramnik didn't show for Game 5 and left his clock running and forfeited; and now Kramnik won't play unless the forfeited point is restored. So because of all these irreversible* actions BY KRAMNIK which clearly indicate that Team Kramnik would be happy to let the entire match stop right here unless he gets total victory on the other issues, NOW you are all convinced that Topalov is scum, a pariah, a low-life, a coward, and every other epithet. How does it work that Topalov is scum mainly because Kramnik raised the stakes and has put the whole match in jeopardy?

This is like if you call me a jerk and I say "because you called me a jerk, I will set myself on fire!", and I DO set myself on fire. This makes YOU scum because you caused me to do it! However, rest easy, even if you call me a jerk because of this post I do not promise to set myself on fire :-)

Theodulf

*There is no way that the arbiters are going to allow the forfeit to be reversed, even if Topalov were to beg them. It would completely undermine the role of the arbiter in every event in the future if a player could say "I will walk out unless you give me back a point" and get his way.

Guys,

It is amazing that supposedly smart people can keep on discussing this issue on its supposed 'substance', namely whether Kramnik is a suspect of cheating or not because of his behavior. Sometimes it may be fun to argue in favor an absurd or silly argument for the hell of it, but this is way too serious now, and the facts are unbearably ridiculous to deserve any further scrutiny.

Tens of thousands watched the first four games live, and hundreds more analysed them afterward. We all know what and how did it happen in them. And we all know that Topalov's chance to win the match now have shrunk alarmingly, and so does Danailov who is at least as smart as we are, and as unscrupulous as it can possibly for a manager to be. Danailov knows that there was no rules violation whatsoever, no serious ground to stir up suspicion ( as if Kramnik actually required 50 trips to the toilet to succesfully cheat his way against Topalov ), no suspicion of foul play whatsoever among the chess community who is watching ( a rarity I suppose these days ), but also no other option for his player to reverse the course of the match save for Kramnik losing his calm and take wild decisions, on or off the board. And this is all that is of interest to him of course, the money that are to be made for Topalov and himself as long as their pretensions to the title have not been officially dispelled.

First Danailov insinuates the cheating, then, when Kramnik is not completelly thrown overboard yet, he escalates by placing his player at the victims chair and braking off all further contact contact. It is so cheap, transparent, unethical and disastrous, that only in the world of chess could it actually occur without official condemnation and legal action taking place. This definitelly the lowest point that chess has ever reached.

right, Yuriy,

it also states nowhere that the coffee is to be hot and the tea actually the beverage rather than the loose leaves that the player then may chew at his own liking...

C'mon, get real!!

Kramnik is right to suspect that the Appeals committee is biased against him. They gave the backstage tapes to Danailov, without informing Kramnik or asking his permission. They are co-operating with the Topalov team.

This match is over. He won't continue.

That suits Danailov perfectly, because this was his intention by starting the toilet games-- sabotaging a match he couldn't win. (Shades of Fischer-Spassky. Only Spassky's personal insistence to stay and play kept the Soviet delegation from going home after Game 2, and claiming a match win.)

Makro will continue the pis*ing contest with Hensel; that's just Makro's way. Look to see all remaining games defaulted for Topo.

But in the end, this all ends up looking bad on Kirsan. And I suspect that Kirsan already knows the news. I think he might not be so happy with events. His big selling point is that "I unified chess!" And now he's got egg on his face.

If Kramnik can't handle the psychological pressure, then he just needs to forfeit the entire match.

This isn't about Topalov using the system to gain a psychological edge, it is about Kramnik having a temper-tantrum and refusing to play b/c he has to share a bathroom with somebody. (poor widdle baby.)

If Topalov had done the same thing, everybody would be accusing him of trying to duck the match because he was down 2 points.

If their contract didn't say individual toilets, then Kramnik is fighting a losing battle.

"knight_tour:
Imagine you are playing at a local tournament and your opponent visits the bathroom after EVERY move, 50 times in the game. Are you not suspicious? Would you not mention it to the TD? And if the TD ruled in your favor, would you then be the villain for raising the issue?"

50 times is documented already as 'overly exaggerated.'. I have a weak bladder myself, exasperated by nervousness at the board along with continuous dosages of water.

I pee at least 10 times during a normal 40/2 G30 time control.

Given the course of the games so far, I'd encourage Kramnik to keep cheating if I were Topalov - obviously Topalov had at least 1 winning position, and should be up 2.5 - 1.5.

Topalov fans unite! Embarrass yourself further!

It is obvious this is not about accusing Kramnik of cheating. It is the machinations of Danailov and his ability to disturb the chess cosmos.

Topalov will go down as a disgrace should this match not continue. Kramnik is doing EXACTLY the right thing.

I don't see what Topalov did wrong. Topalov didn't like something, and so he filed a complaint. The Appeals Committee ruled in his favor. This is how one is supposed to handle disagreements. One can disagree with the Appeals Committee's ruling, but if so, one should be upset at the Appeals Committee and not Topalov. On the other hand, Kramnik should have laughed the whole matter off and played. But by not showing up, it is Kramnik who is acting inappropriately, not Topalov.

"You didn't become convinced that Topalov was scum when Danailov made his complaints."

Wrong. Head back at the game 4 thread and read the reactions to Danailovs first complaint. No one took it really serious but the light it cast on Top/Danailov was pretty clear.

Nothing proofs but a lot of contradict all notion of alleged cheating in the way past four games went. My strong guess that no one would complain if score be not in favor of Topalov, one only could wish if other player will be distracted by often trips to a bathroom.

In the situation follow money as usual – FIDE simply will not cash on any potential commercial matches against their pet – Topalov. Kramnik did not promised to play off his title for money against anyone who will sponsor a player over 2700 for $1M – it seems plain and simple.

My congratulation goes to Kramnik with undisputed win at least in eyes of all chess game lovers. Apparently even 10 games match would be to long for Topalov to handle.

I could see how the situation could be resolved by very ones who created it in first place – FIDE.

kramnik vas topalov zidan vs matirazy!!!!!!!!

"But in the end, this all ends up looking bad on Kirsan. And I suspect that Kirsan already knows the news. I think he might not be so happy with events. His big selling point is that "I unified chess!" And now he's got egg on his face."

Well, seeing him kneeling in front of Topalov and his team, I don't think that's egg.

Kramnik is Inzaman ul Haq and Danilov/FIDE are Darrell Hair. (Cricket for those who don't know)

Almost identical situation.

The good news is that Inzaman was cleared of ball tampering yesterday... He was found guilty of bringing the game into disrepute, but that was the lesser charge.

Those of you who are saying that "Danailov has gotten exactly what he wanted" are perhaps neglecting the other side, which is that now Hensel apparently has everything HE could ask for, leaving aside the money (which they might be able to get some of anyway by suing or threatening to sue). The match is stopped now with a score of 3-1 in Kramnik's favor and will probably not resume. Judging from the flavor of this board and the traffic on the ICC, a majority of the chess world is willing to declare Kramnik the World Champion right now. But if he were to resume with the forfeit intact, Topalov would have seven games to make up a point, which is by no means impossible. So what motive does Team Kramnik have to resume?

Theodulf

One thing I do find strange: apparantly who is in the appeal commission was decided before the match... why does kramnik want them replaced after they ruled against him?... shouldn't he have complained before the match began?... the ruling it self we can debate but that I find strange... and also I see Theodulfs point... there is no way anybody could have guessed Kramnik would have reacted this way... the complaint is quite stupid but so is Kramniks reaction to the ruling (let's not forget he reacted to the ruling, not to Topalovs complaint)

This is rediculous! Topalov was losing this match (2 points behind, and needed to win 3 of the remaining 8 games) so he started some mindgames....
Re-di-cu-lous!

Only a neutral (non-FIDE) jury can solve this!

So far for the promised 'unification' ....
I'm ashamed to be a pro chess-player now..... -hides in the bathroom-

Theo

"By the way, I would find 50 trips to a private bathroom in 1 game suspicious too."

Mike, actually I think it is precisely the excessive frequency of him going to the bathroom that makes it even less likely that he is doing any cheating, and more ridiculous to suggest that he is.

I mean, think about it: Would a player of Kramnik's calibre need to check a computer after every move? Even if he wanted to cheat he would do so only for only a few crucial or complicated positions. He certainly wouldn't get up 50 times for that.

Mark, you made a mistake putting my name on that quote above. It was not from me. I was responding TO that quote, not making it.

Yuri
Prior to the match both teams came and *agreed* to the conditions. Thus it really doesn't matter that the original contract didn't go into more specificity. They came and saw the conditions *explicitly* agreed to them and even started playing the match with them. That is the agreement.

The fact that Kramnik doesn't want to immediately change the agreemnt so he has to literally smell Topalov's _____ everytime he wants to go off camera is not something he should be forced into right before a game. If you want changes, *any* changes, you should give each side time to consider what you are proposing.

Of course Theodulf has right.

Danailov's act was a mere stupidity. For he GAVE kramnik the advantage. Now Kramink can negotiate hard, without anything in risk. Even in the extreme case that the match be cancelled, he just reinforces his claim that he is the World Champion.

Here's the sequence of events as I see it:

1) Topalov: Kramnik cheats. I'm gonna take my ball and go home.
2) Appeals: Hmmm, you may be right, Kramnik can't use his own toilet. Are you happy Sir?
3) Topalov: No, and I won't shake Kramnik's hand either. So there.
4) Kramnik: I like to walk and there's more space in the toilet. Would you rather I paced in circles around the board?
5) Appeals: Outrageous! Lock Kramnik out of his bathroom!
6) Kramnik: If you change the match conditions I won't play.
7) World: Make the hurting stop....

We've just witnessed the first Royal Flush in the history of chess.

The problem with Topalov's behavior isn't that he simply made a request to the appeals committee. The problem is two-fold: (1) it was a stupid complaint and (2) he threatened to withdraw from the match if his stupid complaint wasn't satisfied. What a jack ass. At the same time, shame on Kramnik for letting Topalov's petty psych job get to him and walking out himself. I say a plague on both their houses.

Again we don't know much about the nature of any agreement to have this appeals commission. We don't knwo if they agreed to it. Whether there are rules that they shodul be recused if they are friends with one side. Nor do we know if they have authority to overule the terms of the agreement. Could they decide Topalov has white and Kramnik just has 30 seconds per game for the rest of the match?

We don't know much about that.

Topalov lost today. He may have gotten a point on his scoresheet by the corrupt businessmen running the show at FIDE, but today he lost his reputation. Prior to this championship match mr Topalov has enjoyed quite a high level of admiration for his exciting chess at the board. Now people are reacting in disgust over his petty attempts to turn the tables in a match where his over-the-board skills are falling short.

Topalov, you are a joke, and so is FIDE, who is letting the World Championship Match turn into a WC match!

Theodulf is right. It's in both sides' interest to end the match now. They're both playing meta-chess games with each other, and probably both think they're winning.

Sorry, knight_tour. Cut and Paste job.

Kramnik is absolutely in the right here. He is citing clearly the rules governing the match in his statements. It is NOT a reality show, as much as Putz Danailov wants it to be. Rules are made to be FOLLOWED, not BROKEN, by those who begin to lose a match and need something to grasp onto.

I hope this completely disenfranchises Professional Chess Players from FIDE and Kirsan can sit in the empty, remote 'Chess City' of Ghosts and ponder his most recent dubious sacrifice.

Dollars to Donuts Kirsan will 'fly in' and make some sort of concession to Topalov that appeases both sides and the match continues.

Otherwise, the Appeals Commitee MUST rule in Kramnik's favor, should they decide, against history, to follow the rules set forth already.

What a joke. I'm embarrassed now to tell anyone I play chess. It used to be 'I play chess!' and people looked at you with at least some slight reverence for the willingness to take on such serious game. Now it's like claiming 'I play tiddly-winks!'...

"oh, chess? What's that mean? You pee every move?"

A$$H$%L# Topalov.

FYI, I now have the panelists lined up to participate in a public session about issues raised by cheating, to take place in New York later this year. No date is scheduled yet, but I will post here when it is.

By the way -- although my personal sense of danger makes me wary of wading into the minefield that is being discussed here -- I will venture to play devil's advocate for a moment in terms of two particular points that have been raised against Topalov but that I don't find terribly convincing.

Point 1, given the fact (which I don't think anyone disputes) that engines create a POTENTIAL to cheat even at the super-GM/WC level, the "I have nothing to hide" ethic should rule every player's actions when an official accusation arises.

In the World Open (yes, a far different kind of event than the WCC match -- but still one in which some 30 or 40 GMs from around the world took part), Varshavsky avoided forfeit only by agreeing to let the TD staff inspect his person at least twice, even follow him into the bathroom and wait while he spent a long time in a stall. Meanwhile in a class section another suspect was forfeited and ejected for refusing to let the TDs inspect him further after they found a suspicious earpiece. (Note that official remarks at the time indicated the World Open staff didn't feel the earpiece by itself was enough evidence to kick him out; they acted only after he wouldn't let them check under his clothing for another piece of equipment that would have worked in conjunction with the earpiece.)

So it seems to me that players at all levels today -- up to and including WCC contenders and incumbents -- should be willing to submit to inspection any time a complaint is raised. "Go ahead, I have nothing to hide," should be the norm.

Yes, dignity is compromised. On the other hand, isn't it usually the guilty who get all huffy and say, "This is an insult! How dare you accuse me?"

I don't mean to imply that Kramnik is guilty; of course, I'm sure he is innocent. But I think many of you sound too comfortable with the PROCESS he is following here. In the long run, such a response (voicing outrage and walking away when faced with an official request to disrobe in one way or another) cannot stand, I fear.

Point 2, the appeals committee decision amounts to breaching the contract the players signed. This seems a logical fallacy. Every contest must allow a possibility of mid-course corrections if needed to preserve fairness. Otherwise there would be no point in having an appeals committee at all.

Have any of you ever held a job in business or government? Even a 500-page written contract (I don't know how many pages the contract for this match is) doesn't anticipate EVERY POSSIBLE contingency; that's why all real-world contracts are subject to procedural avenues for resolving disputes. In business, that usually means going to arbitration or a court.

From a procedural standpoint, for a WCC match, the ability to appeal to a duly constituted committee mid-match is obviously preferable to the above two alternatives. Now I'm not saying that the appeals committee for this WCC match was "duly constituted"; Kramnik may well be correct that its members are biased, should be thrown out, etc.

So I'm only knocking down on principle the argument some of you have made (that an appeal altering some condition mid-match is per se a breach of contract); I'm not rejecting the substance of Kramnik's objection to the decision or the specific body that made it.

Well, the situation is bad, but FIDE can always replace Topalov and Kramnik with Karpov and Timman!

Somebody made a comparison with Topalov and Mike Tyson and I thought it was strangely appropriate.

Both seem to be very good at their sport but not that great at things outside it... and both have one of the most despicable agents you could imagine. Sylvio Dainilov is the Bulgarian version of Don King and he has got his hooks into Topalov and won't ever let go.

Too bad for Topa... I will still enjoy his games, as long as his mental state allows him to continue playing well, which I am not 100% convinced of after this match. He is not the first to fall under the spell of a rotten apple like Dainilov, and unfortunately for him he does not have Kramnik's more well-rounded personality to allow him to see through the snake's charm.

As for Vlad, congratulations to the people's World Champion, no matter what corrupt FIDE decides. He has earned it on the board.

Jon Jacobs, have you come across any posting here that advocates relaxing the rules for inspection ?

All such questions were supposedly adressed during the many months before the contest ( that's what managers are there for too, I suppose ), with Topalov raising no objections to the setting of the resulting contracts. Then if upon arrival he had found something that did not correspond with what was agreed, he could have pursued ammendments during the acclimitazion week in Elista, before play begun, or raising some public concerns, again before play begun.

Then, if during play he had serious grounds to suspect something was wrong, he should have tried to resolve the matter in private by talking to the commitee without raising indignant hell, and without causing harmfull consequences to the image and integrity of the contest for no unsubstantiated reason. What did he chose to do instead ? Issued a press release for crying out, insinuating that his opponent is likely cheating and that the authorities are not being strict enough to bring him to order. And all that without the slightest serious ground for suspicion, either based upon evidence or the actual moves played so far, succeeding only in ridiculing both his opponent and the contest, and getting himself back into the match through the back door.

Now, what are you making out of all that ?

Jon

It is not the case that the parites didn't specically agree on the conditions of Games 1-4 they did. Here there is no unexpected "contingency" that needs to be addressed. Everyone knew *exactly* what the conditions were and agreed. Judges are not there to rewrite agreements as they would like them. They are there to enforce them. Here both teams saw the conditions weeks in advance and explicitly in public agreed to them.

"By starting the match both participants agreed all the playing conditions de facto and de jure and the conditions are therefore legally binding."

Carsten Hensel

He is absolutely correct in this. There really isn't any legitimate dispute.

Is it too much to be asked to share a bathroom with your opponent? So much that you don't show up for the game next day??

I hope Kramnik accepts in quiet protest the "result" of game 5, knowing full well he is now the moral victor of this match and sits down to play the remaining 7 games. I hope he would refuse to ever shake Topalov's hand ever again and that if they now have to share a bathroom that he makes a point on banging loudly on the door when Topalov is taking too long. He should also frequently yell out to Damilov something like "Are you sure everything is to your pet's satisfaction?"

Kramnik showed up for the game. But then this condition was put to him with his clock ticking to take it or forfeit. That is too much.

As for me I do not like to use a washroom after someone else just went. I sometimes wait. If this happened to me during a WC game while my clock was ticking after everyone agreed to having seperate restrooms, I would be put off, and my anger would distract me.

so in less than 2 weeks Kirsan and his croonies have managed to screw up both the world championship match (albeit with a bit of help from the players) and the candidate matches. Nice going FIDE!!!
I sincerely hope that all the federations that voted for Kirsan have very red ears now, because it's going to take years for chess to recover from this one, even if the match is finished.
If I owned a big business, and wanted to sponsor a sports event, would I choose the 2008 chess world championship match between X and Y.
Well, no. And I love chess.

Game 5's photos are out.

http://www.worldchess2006.com/main.asp?id=1006

Check out Topalov's huge grin on his signed scoresheet and Danielov's wide smirk.

Gawd, do these people have the slightest inkling that chess is now made all the more poorer because of what they just pulled?

*shakes head in disbelief*

Photos from "game" 5 here:

http://www.worldchess2006.com/main.asp?id=1006

Danailov seems to be really enjoying this!

Backgammon anyone?

Jan,
The issue is that Topalov can't stop. He already made demands to broke the accepted rules of play 4 times.
His first and second demand were fully agreed by Kramnik. Did he stop? No. He made the third one which was agreed partially by FIDE but not by Kramnik. Next day he louds new demands and announces he will treat Kramnik as coward. Doesn't this show he is insane?

The history books, should this match fail to reach completion, will read:

Kirsan Illyumzhinov:
FIDE President
Bribateer
"The Man who Disenfranchised Chess"

Veselin Topalov:
FIDE So-called "World Champion"
Challenger to the Real World Champion, Vlad Kramnik
"Instigator of BladderGate"
All Around Schmuck

Vlad Kramnik:
ACtual World Chess Champion by virtue of defeating Gary Kasparov in a World Title Match.
All Around Good Guy

Anyone want to play 'Go'?

Why, why, why is Topalov taking all the heat for this?! Contemplate the 'maturity' of Kramnik's response to the situation: he camps outside the toilet, pouts, forfeits the game, demands that the appeals' committee be replaced, then (apparently wearied by his exertions) retires to his cottage to rest...

It is already bizarrely unprofessional to hold the match in Kalmykia, when Kirsan is a) Kramnik's compatriot and b) notoriously corrupt. Add to this, Kramnik's relentless and unsupervised toilet breaks - stricter security is routinely applied in junior tournaments, let alone world championships!

Given all of the above, Topalov certainly has grounds for complaint. The mature approach for Kramnik would be to accept some heightened measures of security (the changes implemented by the appeals' committee were not that invasive), cash in on his 2-point lead regardless and demonstrate to the world that Topalov's claims are utterly frivolous...as it stands, going to the length of forfeiting the game merely casts unnecessary suspicion on himself.

Topalov's team may have been inadvisably aggressive about their requests, but at the end of the day Topalov was sitting at the board and Kramnik was whinging about a toilet (is it THAT big a deal to share it?!). The latter should take equal, if not more, responsibility.

NikonMike

Yes indeed a picture is worth a thousand words! Topalov looks pretty happy with his first win of the match as well. Can *anyone* look at that and not think what scumbags?

Is the scoresheet Topalov holding written on toliet paper?

"But here's what I don't understand (directed to the Topalov-is-scum crowd). You didn't become convinced that Topalov was scum when Danailov made his complaints. People make crazy complaints in World Championship matches all the time. If the Appeals Committee had turned down the complaints completely, you wouldn't be upset at Topalov. For that matter, if Kramnik had gone along with the one-bathroom decision of the Appeals Committee, you wouldn't be so upset at Topalov. And if Kramnik had said "I will play the next two games with one bathroom under protest, but after that I will walk out unless I get my way," this would all be under negotiation still and you wouldn't be so upset at Topalov"

Sorry to disappoint you. But in each one of the cases you mentioned we would know that Topalov's manager is an @$$hole and we'd be disappointed with Topalov for quietly approving his crap.

This is supposed to be a unification match, then why have separate toilets ?
If FIDE cannot even unify the toilets , how will they unify the titles ?

I still can't figure out what was really the point.

The privacy part I can understand. The contract violation, yes I understand. But cancelling a basicly won match because you don't want to use a common toilet I don't understand.

The fact still remains: Topalov was sitting in front of the chessboard. Obviously, something else was more important to Kramnik.

Perhaps it was this "not shaking hands" thing, but really, really I don't see why that matters. You are not there making friends but playing chess. The grown man should be able to handle using common toilet and not being shaken by a hand by the competitor.

I just hope they will start again tomorrow.

He was not whinging about a *toilet*.

He was whinging about:

"Makropolous and Azmaiparashvili are very good friends of Danailov. Their actions are clearly biased in favor of Topalov. The decision to grant Danailov full access to videotapes is incorrect and outrageous. I did not sign the contract for acting in a reality show. This goes against all ethical norms and violates my privacy."

asc
You missed allot of news. Kramnik was fine with all sorts of heightened security read Hensels letter. Also Topalov and Kirsan are two peas in a pod. Read Topalovs interviews supporting him and jsut generally the news for the past year.

Regardless of whether your fine with using the same bathroom right after someone else it obviously got Kramnik irritated, maybe despite his best efforts, and he had to make a quick decision whether to play a game in that irritated state or insist on his rights. For Topalov and his creep of a manager to be all smiles is revolting.

Smiling!

http://www.worldchess2006.com/img/g5-005.jpg

http://www.worldchess2006.com/img/g5-020.jpg

http://www.worldchess2006.com/img/g5-028.jpg

Unbelievable...

Agree asc.

Kramnik's case for not playing is not very impressing. Do not understand why 95% of the chess fans seems to blame Topalov, Danailov and Fide.

And on the other side of the coin, why is it such a big deal to Topalov's camp to file these complaints NOW?

I'll tell you why: Because Topalov KNOWS he cannot defeat him over the board. He is thoroughly frustrated.

It's typical fare. Topalov tried insulting him first about the disparity in ratings, that did not work. 3-1 Kramnik - outclassed my ass...He has complained, from what we learn now, on 3 other separate occasions, twice being given his complaint 'justification' and given what he asked for. At some point, Danailov and Topalov decided 'Hey, lets just get outrageous! If they call it off, we still got the Radjabov match!'.

I am entirely dissapointed in this. I haven't felt this bad since when Fischer forfeited Game 2.

Classless Bulgarian Psycho-politics, this is.

The photos from Game 5 are very revealing indeed. While Kramnik and his manager are obviously very much concerned about this disastrous situation, Topalov and Danailov are simply enjoying the mess they created. Disgusting behavior from Topalov's team.

That settles it, then. Kramnik is and remain the sole World Champion. Topalov is just a joker.

asc --
Topalov is taking the heat because Topalov is wrong.

Kramnik had his contract voided by fiat, at the request of Topalov's team.

Topalov, had he merely wanted the bathroom situation fixed to his satisfaction, could have gone to the arbiters in private, but instead he had his team issue a press release.

After the press release, Topalov could have told them that they could not change the playing stage without getting the required consent from Kramnik and thus could have asked for a delay of game 5 while the details are worked out.

There are lots of things Topalov could have done here that would have shown him to be a gentleman and a sport. He choose to do none of them.

He has shown that he is a schmuck, trying to use his influence over the FIDE committee to bully Kramnik since he can't seem to beat him over the chessboard.

On the site, there is now an open letter from Kirsan back to to Kramnik.

http://www.worldchess2006.com/main.asp?id=1008

Basically, Kirsan says he has full confidence in the Appeals Committee, and he urges Kramnik to get back to the chess board. (Not exactly shocking -- what else would he say?)

@ Myron Samsin: Kirsan's position in FIDE is higher than that of Makropolous and Azmaiparashvili. He is also Kramnik's countryman and president of the republic in which the championship is being held. Is there no bias in favor of Kramnik?

By the way, if the match resumes, Topalov now has two Whites in a row.

Ok. Few comments because the readers of this blog are extremely biased:

1. Kramnik if he wants to play with the rules initially agreed he has to accept the appeal comitee which was decided and stated in the initial terms. If he didn't ike them he should have protest before the match. (you cannot say I like the initial conditions and don't want a change exept the part that said about the appeal comitee that I just realized that they are friends of Danilov...)

2. He claims he needs space to walk. Why not ask for longer rest room, or suggest something related with this. His excuse for going 50 times in the bathroom is rediculous

3. Topalov was annoyed (correctly or not) but followed procedures (appeal) and even if he was not entirely satisfied he did come to play

4. Kramnik should have laughed at the allegations (if inocent) and play on to prove he is better

5. Is not entirely unacceptable for two players to share the same toilet. In Linares I am sure that there aren't 6 toilets, one per player, neither in Mtel or other top tournaments.

It's over guys.

Kirsan has now officially stated that he is supporting the Appeals Committee, and no way Kramnik is going to continue to play if today's forfeit is not overturned - which it will never be.

Topalov will be the new official World Champion of chess.

Topa has certainly the right to complain about Kramnik's toilette visits. I want also to mention that not Kramnik has scored two victories over Topa in this unification match but Topa pushed too hard /because he is a fighter and most people love that/ although Topa has secured draws in games one and two. So Kramnik or anyone in his crew can not claim that Topa is in a losing position in the match so far. Chess world needs an winning champion, not a defender who can hardly find an winning idea!

Kramnik knows that without his toilet (and what is hidden there) he will lose the match. So, he wants to break the match.
Sour loser.

niceforkinmove,

Again, the conditions that are breach of contract are only those set out by the contract itself. If the contract stipulates that the venue be indoors then moving it outside is a breach of contract by organizers. Moving it to a different hall is not. The approach of "any alterations to conditions even not set out by the contract is a breach of contract" means that raising the temperature in the hall by .5 degrees is a good enough excuse for Topalov or Kramnik to bail.

Certainly, there may be situations not expressly set out by the contract that are so severe they need resolution/new rules/rule changes. In such a case the matter in dispute comes before an arbitration committee which resolves it.

You point out that nobody wants to smell somebody's crap during the game. That's a good issue to bring up. Perhaps in time it could be resolved. But I doubt that anybody here would bail on a chance to be a world champion because of the risk of a smelly bathroom.

We all wish the parties had more time to sort this out. But the match is on a schedule and we have to live in the real world. The daily game schedule and the arbitration system are definitely part of the contract. And I bet were actually agreed on EXPLICITLY by both participants.

Since chess seems to be a lost cause I am starting FIDM (Fédération Internationale des Monopoly). I promise it will be a fair and democratic organization, though of course I will be making all the important decisions. I will also personally put up the $10 prize fund for the world championship match which will be played in my backyard. Date will be decided later.

asc: Makro acts as functioning manager of FIDE. It is always his picture and his name, whenever there is serious negotiating going on. Kirsan just kind of sits in his ivory tower and showers money on his plaything. Yes, Kirsan has a higher position, but Makro is the de facto boss. Did you see him pointing fingers and talking loudly in the pictures from the press conference today?

The grin on Topalov's face made me sick. What a disgrace. Utter c***.

Everything has been said really. Topalov's team getting the tapes proves how corrupt FIDE are in all this. In all probability Danailov was informed by someone inside FIDE about the content of these tapes. It stinks to the high heaven.

Kramnik did the right thing. He is the one with his honour intact. On ICC the public opinion seemed approx. to be 4 to 1 (or so - with many blaming both parties to a varying degree) in favour of Kramnik and those 20% for Topalov had to be either mad, trolls or bulgarians with their inane comments.

How can anyone justify what they just did to chess, for their own personal financial gain. No class, zero dignity.

From Susan Polgar's Fantastic Blog:

Open Letter of FIDE President Kirsan Ilyumzhinov to Vladimir Kramnik

Sochi, 29 September 2006

GM V. Kramnik

Dear Vladimir,

I am currently in Sochi, at meeting of meeting of the Heads of the Regions of the South Russian Region of the Russian Federation led by the President of Russia V. Putin.

I have carefully read your open letter of today addressed to me, and I hereby inform you of my full trust in the members of the Match Appeals Committee and their latest decision taken in respect of the appeal of Topalov’s team dated 28 September 2006.

I am also asking you in good faith to continue your participation in this match for the sake of the principles of our sport and prevention of the destruction of our long-sought efforts to organize this World Championship match, which is of utter importance for the whole world.

Millions of chess fans in the whole world are following this match with great interest and are looking forward for the just outcome produced over the chessboard and not from exchanging open letters which we are receiving from both teams. The Republic of Kalmykia and me personally as well as the Russian Chess Federation with its President, Mr. A. Zhukov have done our best in order to secure excellent conditions for the both participants. Therefore, I am kindly asking you to respect all these steps taken towards the smooth organization of the event.

Yours sincerely,
Kirsan Ilyumzhinov
President

posted by SusanPolgar at 9/29/2006 12:41:00 PM | 3 comments links to this post

My summary on the bathroom scandal

A few days ago, Silvio Danailov made an official protest against Kramnik. The official protest stated that Mr. Kramnik used the toilet about 50 times in each game.

This is the official rule from FIDE which both players agreed to prior to the match:

3. 17 Appeals Committee.

3. 17. 1 The President or his Deputy shall be Chairman of the Appeals Committee. There shall be two (2) other members all from different Federations. No member of the Appeals Committee can be from the federation of either player.

All protests must be submitted in writing to the Appeals Committee not more than two (2) hours after the relevant playing session, or the particular infringement complained against.

The Committee may decide on the following matters:

a) an appeal against a decision by an arbiter,
b) a protest against a player's behaviour,
c) a complaint alleging false interpretation of the regulations,
d) a request for the interpretation of specific regulations,
e) a protest or complaint against any participant, or
f) all other matters which the Committee considers important.

If possible, the Committee shall reach a decision not more than two (2) hours after the submission of a protest. The appeals process shall include written representations and a written decision.

The Committee shall endeavour to find binding solutions that are within the true spirit of the FIDE motto, Gens Una Sumus. Each protest must be accompanied by a deposit fee of USD 5,000 (five thousand US Dollars) or the equivalent in local currency.

If the protest is accepted as logical and reasonable, the fee shall be returned even if the protest will be rejected. The fees not to be returned due to unreasonable protests shall be forfeited to FIDE.

The written decision of the Appeals Committee arising from any dispute in respect of these regulations shall be final.

The Appeals Committee made the following final decision:

In order that the World Championship can continue running smoothly, the Appeals Committee has decided:

(a) To close both the toilets in the players' rest rooms and to open another toilet that will be available only to the two players.
(b) Not to accept the request of Mr. Danailov, to stop the use of the rest rooms by the players.
(c) The Appeals Committee believes that the publication of the videotapes to the mass media is not within our authority and we consider such action to be against the privacy of the players.
(d) The Appeals Committee will return the fee of USD 5,000 for the appeal to Mr. Danailov.

Mr. Kramnik did not agree with the decision. He refused to play game 5 unless his conditions are met. The arbiter started his clock 22 minutes late and he failed to show up within the time stated in the rule and was forfeited.

At the press conference, Mr. Kramnik stated that he is willing to play game 5 tomorrow (which means that he does not recognize his forfeit loss today) if the match proceeds as planned and there would be no change whatsoever in any condition.

In addition, he demanded that the Appeals Committee be replaced because he feels that they are more favorable toward Mr. Topalov.

Unless something can be agreed by all parties, the match will not go on. This is another sad episode for chess. I feel that all sides have valid points but I also believe that all parties made mistakes in handling this matter (perhaps some more than others).

I strongly believe that if chess has a serious and professional Chess Commissioner such as other major sports, this would not have happened. The players and organizers cannot be both judge and jury at the same time on matters like this.

These players are the best in what they do. We are witnessing the best attacker against the best defender and it can bring back true credibility to the World Championship title. The chess fans have been waiting 13 long years for the title to be reunited.

I urge all sides to think about the consequences and what they are doing to chess. Please put the best interest of chess and the chess fans first and put aside personal ego or destructive psychological mind games. May the best player win on the chess board!

I have no stake in this World Championship Match. I am not rooting for or against either player. I do not think either player cheats. I just think they went to far with the psychological mind games. This opinion is mine only and I state things as I see them from the perspective of a chess fan, chess professional, chess ambassador and as someone who competed and won the World Championship in the past.

posted by SusanPolgar at 9/29/2006 10:47:00 AM

yeah did his toalit pc adviced him b*f8 topalv and his fans are the soure losers

At least Danilov have succeded in what Greg Koster et al have not, I am truly convinced that Kramnik is the true world champion. On the other hand Kramnik was en route to convincing me himself...

Q

Susan,

I just at this point do not see how chess can save a meaningfull world championship.

Do you?

2Mimo: Obviously, the sore loser forget to go to toilet before this move. In the subsequent games he did not make such mistake and was more frequently visiting toilet :).

the contract specifies the power and make up of an appeals committee to handle disputes. topalov used the official channel outlined in the contract to bring his dispute. his dispute was only partially satisfied and due to that he decided to protest by not shaking hands, but agreed to continue play.

it is kramnik that is in breach. he chooses not to abide by the decision of the appeals committee; who is given power over disputes in the rules and regulations. and he questions the make up of the committee and refuses to acknowledge it's power after agreeing to these provision:

"The President or his Deputy shall be Chairman of the Appeals Committee. There shall be two (2) other members all from different Federations. No member of the Appeals Committee can be from the federation of either player."

"The written decision of the Appeals Committee arising from any dispute in respect of these regulations shall be final."

Topalov is taking the heat because he's the one in breach of contract. Simple as that.

As Danailov says, and you can look it up on Chessbase: "Agreement exists only when there are signed papers; everything else is just words."

The signed papers are all that matters here. They seem to put Topalov squarely in the wrong. If Kirsan doesn't think so, the Committee of Arbitration for Sport surely will.

After that ridiculous, condescending and one-sided piece from Ilyumzhinov what is there left to say.

yeah and the reson that topalov is losing this game is becouse he forget his chair in san lauis

"Classless Bulgarian Psycho-politics, this is." - Mark

"...those 20% for Topalov had to be either mad, trolls or bulgarians with their inane comments." - AZ79

Nice vein of xenophobia running through this thread...

But of course everything Bobby Fischer ever did was sacrosanct...

Interesting. The Russian Chess Federation is taking the side of Krammer.

http://www.64.ru/?/ru/articles/item=1210

Quote of the day:

"15:45h: Kramnik is in his rest room, and is waiting for his toilet to open. The press conference of Makropoulos is about to start. So far it seems the game is not going to start unless the toilet is opened..."

At least now we have Classical Toilete Champion. He fully deserved this title. Has anyone in chess history succeed being 50 times in a toilet during a game from a World Championship match.

The 'Danailov' Demands:

1)To stop the use of the rest rooms and the adjacent bathrooms for both players.
2)If a player needs to go to the bathroom, he can use the public bathroom, but only with permission from the Arbiter and accompanied by an assistant arbiter.
3)The Organizing Committee should present the video tapes from the rest rooms to all journalists accredited in the press-center so that they can verify for themselves the facts described by us.

The Decision:
(a) To close both the toilets in the players’ rest rooms and to open another toilet that will be available only to the two players. [WHY?]
(b) Not to accept the request of Mr. Danailov, to stop the use of the rest rooms by the players. - APPEAL DENIED
(c) The Appeals Committee believes that the publication of the videotapes to the mass media is not within our authority and we consider such action to be against the privacy of the players. - APPEAL DENIED
(d) The Appeals Committee will return the fee of USD 5,000 for the appeal to Mr. Danailov. - AS INDICATED IN THE AGREEMENT

So, essentially, the Topalov Teams's complaining about a man's frequency to use the toilet got the Appeals Committee to remove private toilets from both players rest areas.

Ludicrous. Petty. The act of a desperate team.

Topalov will forever be associated with 'ToiletGate' regardless of his chess acumen.

Even Fischer would not stoop to such depths.

Topalov has and forever thought himself worthy of a 'better' opponent than Kramnik, yet somehow, his fanbase cannot reconcile how he can be down 3-1 at this juncture, having passed up a sure draw, and missed a sure win. Kramnik, on the other hand, took advantage of his opponents mistakes and secured BOTH points, something Topalov and his fans cannot seem to come to terms with.

All that is left is mindless nitpicking and Appeals submission from here on out.

I'd be truly amazed if another game is played in this match.

Topalov gets the FIDE 'Unified Flush Championship' Title and looks forward to his so-called WCC match against $$Radjabov$$.

Elsewhere, the entire chess publica will recognize Kramnik as the true world champion.

A pyrrhic victory.

"Topalov will be the new official World Champion of chess."

In FIDE's view, he already was. But no one will accept a "championship" that's won this way.

Disgraceful day for chess again. Topalov is such a low life. To resort to these shameful tactics when he is behind is bad enough but to use the corrupt pals on the appeals committee to give it credence..... Terrible

Topalov trule deserves the title "The WC Chamion" ;-)
And Danailov can TISSUE new demands from now on to everybody who wants to use the WC they own!

I wonder if there's any chance that the organizers of Wijk aan Zee, say, come forward and anounce that they won't invite Topalov again.

But this is probably too much to dream of...

At least this situation will be a heaven for puns and clever headlines. I am thinking in a few:

Kramnik is pissed up
World championship going down the drain.
Chess politics stinks
Kramnik was full of crap.
Topalov title is worth a sh*t

and many more eschatological references. I am awaiting the Kingpin magazine take on this issue :)

Topalov is taking the heat because he raises an issue that is 1% substantiated by evidence and logic, at a time when he appears 90% down and out from a contest in which 100% of the people watching had not noted anything irregular untill yesterday, save for a missed simple mate.

Shame on him, for ridiculing and jeopardizing what all the chess fans in the world were so eagerly expecting, for ridiculing chess as a sport to the mainstream media, for insinuating that his opponent is a toilet cheater without any serious evidence whatsoever and for employing cheap tricks to get back into the match. Cheapalov is indeed a fair name for him to carry.

Topalov should immediately withdraw from the match and demand that it will be continued with result 3-1, but only if the remaining games are played in Bulgaria. Otferwise, the Russians (I suspect even Putin will be involved soon) will make all sorts of machinations to help their sour loser to win the match. Enough is enough.

In summary, Topa tried to create a situation and Appeals team allowed him to do that. As a result of which the playing conditions before game 5 were different from that existed before Game 1.

Did Kramnik break any law or regulations of the match during Games 1-4 ? If nobody has a proof then it is unjust to make changes in the match conditions. Those raising points that Kramnik should have raised protest reagrding Makro and Azmai in Appeals Committee than in the same vein one can say that Topa's team had also evaluated the match conditions and should have asked for a controller accompanying the players during the bathroom visit. Topa's Team had also agreed to the playing environment (with 2 toilets etc).

We are all aware that for last one decade or more FIDE had become used to arrange 4/6 game WC matches. So Let's assume that Kramnik won the 4-game match by 3-1 margin. I don't have any hopes of resumption of this match.

-Amit

And here we were worried about whether blitz, rapid or additional classical would be adequate tiebreak.

As much as I agree with Kramnik's stand in principle, we live in a real world in which such a change is no reason to bail on the game and match.

Kramnik wanted to be able to pace and think by himself, unsupervised. He approved the arbitration committee. Most significantly, he agreed to play by Kirsan's rules and turn over the title to him.

Some kind of organizer boycott of Topalov sounds appealing. But I doubt it will be considered by anyone with any power ($). Just as with scandals outside the chess world, my hunch is that people involved in the business of organizing top-level tournaments will just shake their heads for a week or so and then get on with life.

Unfortuantely, the only people who sound willing to give up something of their own to express their outrage, are those who comment on the Internet. The irony is that if even one of them had any money to put into chess, then a sizable fraction of all chess-blog discussions (about how chess pros can't make a living, FIDE is awful and only gets its way because of Kirsan's purse strings, etc.), wouldn't even be taking place. Money, hell; most of them don't even have names.

The Russian Chess Federation made a statement.
http://www.64.ru/?/ru/articles/item=1210
In short:
Topalov uses incorrect methods which shows his weakness;
The Federation demands:
- cancel the Appeals Committee decision on video tapes release as unethical;
- cancel the decision to close bathrooms;
- replace members of the Committee;
- resume the play from 3-1 with full accordance to the previously accepted regulations.

The federation believes that the FIDE President and organizers wo0uldb't let Topalov to break the match down.

It becomes really tricky now.
They play in Russia, The head of Russian Federation is Vice-Prime-Minister of Russia, and he can put a serious pressure on Kirsan. It looks like the official matter can be resolved only by Putin. Will he show his support for Kramnik and Zukov, or to Kirsan's original position (which can easily change, of course).
It is obvious that either Kramnik or Topalov will not continue playing under such sircumstances. So the match is over. Should we really care now what the final decision will be?
For me it is obvious:
- Kramnik is truly respectable person and the realo Champion;
- Topalov is cheapo;
- FIDE and Kirsan succeeded as usual;
- the chess publicity is now even worst than year ago.

What a joke, why these guys (Kramnik and Topalov) are not honest?

If they were so tired that wanted an extra rest day, it would be much easier if they just say: "We agree to play game five on Saturday".
Instead, we have all these freak show ... for what? For playing game five on Saturday.

This not only damages the image of chess, but it makes among the public to root for either Topalov or Kramnik not because of their chess, but because of their positions: Topalov, Mr Danailov's puppet (it was not enough for him to damage Ponomariov, he wants everything for seeing his dreams fulfulled with either player), or Kramnik, who does not want to show what he does in the bathroom, when people know what usually a secretive person does in a bathroom ... (reading magazines?)

All this happens when: (a) None of the players have a girlfriend/wife. (b) None of the players have any other serious profession, anything to do besides chess, so chess is life for them.
(c) Both players want to give credibility to a title that none of them won in a unanimously recognized way.

Definitely, chess is becoming only interesting if you are a bad player (so you are still amazed for the beauty and does not understand high level chess)... For high level chess, this is the future: Every game will consist of at most three hours and none of the players is allowed to go to the bathroom (like a examination).

Sad days for professional chess.

OK. Kramnik clocks 50 unsupervised toilet breaks/game. This is not seen as remotely questionable. And because Topalov protested, he should be boycotted by organizers.

Yeah, I'm really following the logic here...

Good Stuff:

Accusations of cheating in chess matches are not unprecedented, and sometimes they are a little outlandish.

In 1978, during the world title match between Anatoly Karpov and Viktor Korchnoi, Karpov had yogurt delivered to him about three hours into Game 2. Korchnoi's camp protested, saying that the flavor, blueberry, was a code to suggest a move or strategy to Karpov.

Korchnoi's team later said the protest was meant to be funny, to show how ridiculous some of the protests during the match had been, but the appeals committee took it seriously. It ruled that yogurt could be delivered to Karpov at a fixed time during each game, and that the referee would have to be notified before the game if it would not be blueberry.

And Sergei Dolmatov, a grandmaster and a trainer for the Russian national team, accused Topalov of cheating last year at the world championship tournament that he won in San Luis, Argentina. Danailov strenuously denied the charge.

Yasser Seirawan, an American grandmaster who has been providing commentary on the match at playchess.com, said the charges by Topalov's camp were probably a reflection of nervousness, and that Kramnik probably was not cheating.

The real problem, Seirawan said, is Topalov's standing in the match.

"I'm sure that he is saying to himself: `This can't be happening to me. It can't be that he is a better player."'

You know, if chess wants to be seen as a professional sport, the governing bodies should threaten each player with, say, a $1.5 million dollar fine if they walk out on this match.

Agree with Vlad as to the "obvious" points.

I'm curious how much Putin *cares*, really. If a lot, then he can put the heavy on Kirsan. But Putin has a lot more important things on his mind, like Gazprom and Rosneft and so forth.

Topalov's claim may appear ridiculous, however, he has acted entirely withing the rules of the agreement. There is no 'breach of contract'. The Jury mechanism is established as the method of dispute resolution in the contract.

Topalov submitted a protest to the Jury, which made a ruling. Kramnik did not like the ruling, and did not show up. 1 point to Topalov.

All that being said - the whole affair is tawdry in the extreme. Oh well, at least we can have a new entry in the dictionary definition for 'bathos'.

asc:

You keep quoting '50 toilet breaks per game' like it's fact, when the Appeals committee already stated it was exaggerated.

Given that, what does the Topalov Appeal stand on?

The Demands:

1)To stop the use of the rest rooms and the adjacent bathrooms for both players.
2)If a player needs to go to the bathroom, he can use the public bathroom, but only with permission from the Arbiter and accompanied by an assistant arbiter.
3)The Organizing Committee should present the video tapes from the rest rooms to all journalists accredited in the press-center so that they can verify for themselves the facts described by us.

The Decision:
(a) To close both the toilets in the players’ rest rooms and to open another toilet that will be available only to the two players. [WHY?]
(b) Not to accept the request of Mr. Danailov, to stop the use of the rest rooms by the players. - APPEAL DENIED
(c) The Appeals Committee believes that the publication of the videotapes to the mass media is not within our authority and we consider such action to be against the privacy of the players. - APPEAL DENIED
(d) The Appeals Committee will return the fee of USD 5,000 for the appeal to Mr. Danailov. - AS INDICATED IN THE AGREEMENT

So, essentially, the Topalov Teams' complaining about a man's frequency to use the toilet got the Appeals Committee to remove private toilets from both players rest areas; a frequency of 50 the Appeals Committe further stated EXPLICITLY was EXAGGERATED.

I don't get it.

Oh please this is bad enough without having to read Susan Polgar claim she is not in favor of either player. I have to go out of town so I can't pull all the times she publicly said Kramiks title expired and Topalov is the real champ.

How does she suggest they procede? Should Topalov agree to negate his "win"? Should Kramnik just suffer the "loss" and play on?

isnot the head of tha appeals committie the same guy that mad the fight with the spanish police 2year ago????

the agreements also state that each claim is to be submitted to the Jury no later than two hours after a game and to be resolved within another two hours _if possible_.

The fact, that there was a rest day in between and Kramnik was informed about the Jury's decision two hours _before_ start of the new round with various other protests of Topalov's already in the air, is dubious to the extreme.

His claim of a biased jury is a lot more substantiated on those facts alone than the whole story Topalov dreamed up.

http://www.ajedreznd.com/2004/serie.htm

the head of the appeals committie :)

All these personal, 5th grade level, attacks against Topalov are way overboard.

Mig, maybe there should be a 'I am 12 years or older and if I cannot express my point of view without calling chess players names I would use my mouth to shut up' screen, before people can post comments.

You know, if chess wants to be seen as a professional sport, the governing bodies should obey the law and follow agreements they sign.

Mark,

I don't "keep quoting". I quoted once.

The appeals' committee did not state the extent of the exaggeration. It conceded "an unusual number of visits".

Topalov exercised his right to protest, the appeals' committee took it seriously, and suddenly he should be boycotted...?

Still don't get it.

There is no way that Kramnik will continue the match unless the forfeit is removed. My guess is that he will leave Elista tomorrow, and the match will be over.

Nick,
Everybody gets what they deserve. Topalov is no exception.

Jean-Michel,

I agree that Silvio Dainilov is similar to Don King in terms of sleaziness. But that's pretty much where it ends. Unlike Don King, Mr Dainalov has absolutely zero charisma. The only feeling that he tends to provoke is disgust.

Everyone's getting a bit overexcited aren't they? I really can't see why Topalov's getting all the abuse. There have been silly protests in most of the World Chmapionships held in the past. Topalov's only following the tradition. Kramnik's the one who taken it to extremes by refusing to play. He should have just laughed it off and got on with it, and maybe launch a few protests of his own.

My prediction: Kirsan comes back and orders Danilov to find some sort of comprimise with the Kramnik camp. The forfeit will get annulled, and Kramnik will get his toilet back. The match will continue, and Kirsan gets himself some nice publicity as the man who saved the match.

Yuri

Let me use your example of temperature. Lets say the players both agree the temperature shall be between 70 and 85 degrees. Then Topalov starts losing 2 games and complains that it should be 100 degrees. It is not ok that the commission decide that the temperature should now be 95 degrees. They should not be able to change what the players agreed to. Here they explicitly looked at the playign hall and agreed to the conditions.

If they originally said it would be indoors and then later agreed that it woudl be in this building then it had to be in that building.

please note this regulation that Susan Polgar must have missed it:

Official Match Regulations, Section 3.18.3: "After the World Chess Championship Committee agrees with the Organisers on the arrangements in respect of the tournament hall, facilities, accommodation and meals, transportation, telecommunication, ceremonies, etc., no objections from the participants shall be acceptable as long as the conditions are in accordance with the rights of the players granted in their agreements."

Note it says "agreements" PLURAL so it is not just talking about one written agreemnt. Nor does it in any way exclude thier agreement that they would play with this layout. After the comittee and the organizers agreed Topalov had no
*standing* to even bring this complaint. So the comission violated the rules in even hearing the complaint. They then violated this provision again by changing Kramniks right under his agreements.

This was piling one violation on top of another.

"Topalov: One has to win games in order to win matches."

Topalov just proved himself wrong!

Kirsan has officially replied that he does not intend to change anything, so in reality this match is over. Kramnik will rightly refuse to play if conditions are not restored, and he will also not accept game 5 as forfeited.

If the appeals committee dont come to their senses by tomorrow I for one fully endorse him to leave the championship match. Topalov can remain in Elista with his reputation rotting away, preciously holding on to his FIDE paper title.

Spud,

so because someone spits on my shoes, I should just acknowledge that there are many people who spit on others shoes, I should have shrugged it off, and maybe spit on some others shoes myself.

Is that about what you're proposing??

Topalov's team may have been inadvisably aggressive about their requests, but at the end of the day Topalov was sitting at the board and Kramnik was whinging about a toilet (is it THAT big a deal to share it?!). The latter should take equal, if not more, responsibility.

Posted by: asc at September 29, 2006 12:32

My thoughts exactly. Kramnik, leading the match 2-0, defaults a whole point to Topalov because he has to share a bathroom with him?

WTF?

abc,
Topalov' manager lied to public abvout very sensitive matters. Even the friendly Appeals Committee had to make a public note on this.
I would assume that Topalov did not know about the lie until he said he wouldn't shake Kramnik's hand.
Why? Because Appeals Committee did not accept their demands as baseless? Or because Kramnik does not agree to the Appeal Committee decision? Did Kramnik ever said a single bad word about Topalov? Did he ever show his disrespect to Topalov?
The only Topalov's goal was to stop the match. And he succeeded. But now everybody can see his true face with WC stuff all over.

maybe all this scandal was prearrenged by Topalov, Kramnik and FIDE to get more publicity for chess.

Albrecht's post evokes the typical schoolteacher putdown, "Well, if all your friends jumped off a cliff, would you do it too?"

Because, yeah, it's really equivalent to what Spud's proposing...

I personally do not understand all the Topalov bashing, myself.

If I had been Kramnik, I would have said "Fine, I will share a bathroom with you and beat you anyway to prove that my trips to the bathroom had absolutely nothing to do with my 2-0 lead".

But to give up a whole point because of a TOILET???? Makes no sense to me.

I have found most of the pro-Kramnik posting simply unconscionable, especially the blatant false accusations against Topalov which claims that he has broken his contract, when it is obvious that it is the other way around. Kramnik forfeited the match, not Topalov. Personally, I don't like the ruling of the Appeals Committee, it seems to me that there should have been some other way to resolve the issue. Nonetheless, Kramnik should have played on under protest. If the match does not continue, everyone will look bad. Kramnik will look bad for walking out and forfeiting the match, does that mean he was cheating? Topalov will look bad for derailing the match while he was two points down -- he could win the crown on a technicality only to lose public respect. FIDE will look bad because there will be no unification. And chess will look bad -- can't even run a simple thing like a World Championship match without having one of the contestants walk out.

Well summed up from the rules, niceforkinmove. FIDE won't have a leg to stand on (hopefully).

As I believe someone else proposed (this blog has gotten pretty huge, so it would take some time to find it), the best thing that could happen would be for Topalov to request that he's not going to accept a forfeited game, take back a couple (maybe the last 2 or so) of his manager's demands, and then the ball's in Kramnik's court to allow the match to continue. But I don't think it will happen. I think we're now doomed to have 2 champions again, prob. for quite some time...

I don't give a damn what is right or wrong. Kramnik was at the hall and should have done what professionals in sports do, and that is play. Results in sports are final when the game is over. Accept the fact you were damn stupid, play with the forfeit loss and defend your damn championship. Frankly, why Kramnik would agree to a unification match that was being ran by the otherside rather than a neutral party is strange in itself, but he did agree to it, and should play.

The appeal jury's decision to change the playing arrangements are not only in contradiction to common sense, they are even in clear violation of the match contract:

Official Match Regulations, Section 3.18.3: "After the World Chess Championship Committee agrees with the Organisers on the arrangements in respect of the tournament hall, facilities, accommodation and meals, transportation, telecommunication, ceremonies, etc., no objections from the participants shall be acceptable as long as the conditions are in accordance with the rights of the players granted in their agreements."

3. 17. 1 "The President or his Deputy shall be Chairman of the Appeals Committee. There shall be two (2) other members all from different Federations. No member of the Appeals Committee can be from the federation of either player.

All protests must be submitted in writing to the Appeals Committee not more than two (2) hours after the relevant playing session, or the particular infringement complained against.

If possible, the Committee shall reach a decision not more than two (2) hours after the submission of a protest. The appeals process shall include written representations and a written decision."

If this match halts it would be the biggest disaster ever that happened to World chess championship title. I'm hoping that Kirsan would come up something over the phone at least with both sides. That might require some serious convincing maybe backed up with some compensation or political power (Putin).

I was thinking that most of the fault is on Topalov's side starting this mess without any proof. The restroom coverages were already visible by the arbiter. It's nonsense that Danailov should be able to see Kramnik peeing or whatever he does in there! I still thought Kramnik should have played today and announce that if conditions are not restored that he won't play the next time. That would have given another day(restday) to solve the crisis. Now the forfeit game would be another mess to be cleaned, and a big one.

It's disgusting to see Danailov's face after what happened anyway.

gmnotyet,
Everybody has their own standards of honor.
May be, there are people who do not care much if a police officer pisses on them. They just stand up and take a bath. Does this mean everybody should say "Fine, I was just pissed of by authority, not a big deal, I will take a bath and continue our conversation"

Eopithecus: Surely you mean why Topalov would agree to a unification match run by the other side? It's Kramnik with the home field advantage.

Spud, I second that and I really hope your prediction holds true.

Out of curiousity:

Which is the bigger scandal, this or 1985?

Have you read Kirsan's letter to Kramnik? This guy is so full if it. He doesn't even address any of the points that Kramnik's team made. He simply makes a baseless statement about having "full trust" of the committee and goes on to try to turn the weight on Kramnik, making him feel guilty if he doesn't accept their rulings. Just what you'd except of the chief scumbag.

Mig, I think that your recap is inaccurate -- "Today's game five has been cancelled."

Actually the game wasn't cancelled. In the opinion of FIDE, the game officially occurred, with one of the participants forfeiting on time.

Vlad, please not more of this "Would you jump off a cliff?" mentality. Sharing a toilet is simply not analogous to what you suggest.

I would further venture to say that this thread has led to an overly scatological mindset...

Don't bring up professionals in sports, please. Football or hockey teams don't share the same bathroom, as that would be ridiculous.

How can one think that Kramnik or Topalov would cheat at this level. If they get caught with the cameras in pretty much all areas, their careers would be over. I don't think even at the stake of the World title a 31 year old player would risk to lose his career and reputation.

Steven Craig Miller,

you should read more carefully. I don't find anyone claiming that "Topalov ... has broken his contract"; the accusation is that FIDE/the Appeals Committee has done so.

So, let me get this straight: If a player or team in competition doesn't like a ruling made by the ref, he/they are justified in stopping play until the ruling is reversed and a new ref is put into the game??

If that's the case, then my Florida Gators should have stopped the game vs. fsu in 2004 when the acc refs (from fsu's conference) made bad ruling after bad ruling that effectively gave the game to fsu. They should have stood on the sidelines until the refs' decision was reversed and a new ref substituted. Brilliant! Too bad they didn't think of that.

Whatever anyone thinks about the Appeals Committee's decision, Kramnik is not justified in refusing to play a scheduled game. Just play the game!

Kirsan coming to Elista!

From Chessbase:

In the meantime we hear that Ilyumzhinov has interrupted his visit in Sochi and is on his way back to Elista. Possibly the only chance that the match can be salvaged lies in the hands of Kirsan Ilyumzhinov.

Is Mig scared of Greg Koster?? I am shocked he supported Kramnik on this.

The only reason Kramnik did not turn up for game 5 was that he was lucky to ahead in the match.. so you can almost see what he is thinking, something like: "If the match is cancelled now, I increase my credibility as the WC because I am ahead by 2 points... So what if it throws the chess world into greater turmoil... I've never given $hit about that anyway"

Kramnik is an A$$ when invoking his 'principles' off the chessboard.

Kramnik said that he does not wish to use a toilet with video camera's in it... so it appears he is suggesting that he actually 'needed to go' all of the 50 times.. I am sure most people would have thought that he just maybe liked sitting on his throne and thinking or walking into a place where he knew he wouldn't be distracted and think abt the game... But if that is the case, why worry about having a camera (say, an infra red camera - so u cant really get a clear picture) trained on him...

This is ridiculous, but not unexpected. Between the three parties (GMs Kramnik and Topalov and FIDE) there's plenty of blame to go around, with enough left over for second helpings. It seems either Chess currently has no authority figure with enough standing to make these players sit down and play a legitimate match for its world title; FIDE feels threatened by the possibility that another strong World Champion might seize such authority, to its own detriment; or both. Perhaps the sponsors, who put up the $1m prize fund, will intervene, whoever they are. But it seems the wheels are off the train again and it's Chess that will suffer.

I think we'll finally see Kirsan's skill as a diplomat tested now. If he has any--I'm curious.

That he is coming back to Elista is a concession from him, showing that he perhaps can't afford to blow Kramnik off, and forfeit all his remaining games. Maybe he needs this match more than I'd thought.

It gets interestinger and interestinger.

This match will not resume. The game 5 forfeit cannot be undone, and Kramnik will never accept it.
(In 1972 Fischer never argued against his game 3 forfeit, neither before nor after game 3.)

FIDE's Topalov now takes the title of WCC - Water Closet Champion - with a score of 0-2.

*** KIRSAN'S BLOWN OPPORTUNITY ***

Kirsan had a rare opportunity to make a huge favorable impression on a chess world that sees him as a bad joke. If Kirsan had stepped in to save this match he would have gained thousands of supporter in one moment. But instead...

Kirsan has publicly backed the behavior of the Moe-Larry-Curly Appeals Committee. Kirsan needed to step in BEFORE Geurt Gijssen pressed the clock to start Kramnik's time ticking. Now it is too late.

Elista's reputation suffers. Kirsan's FIDO can now boast that as soon as it regained control of the WCC title, it organized the shortest aborted title match in chess history.

*** CAN ARBITER'S CHOICES BE REASSESSED? ***

All aspects of this fiasco must be examined. I believe it is legitimate to at least inquire about the choices made by the Arbiter of this match.

Geurt Gijssen was only following the rules when he started Kramnik's clock. Yes, that is *all* he was doing. Maybe sometimes mechanically following the rules is not good enough. Perhaps this was a moment we needed the Arbiter to get creative, to rise to the occasion, to consider the bigger picture. I am not sure what to think about this. But...
Had Gijssen removed the clock instead of pressing it, neither player would now be backed into a corner with no way out, and the match could still continue after negotiations. But once the clock was started it made diplomacy impossible.

*** AS PREDICTED ***

I published articles before 2006/09/23 that this match was a bad thing for its returning control of WCC matches to FIDO. Even I did not think my prediction would turn out to be so right so fast.
(See Northwest Chess magazine dated 2006/09, and Chessville.com at http://chessville.com/Editorials/KramnikLastMatchChampion.htm).

*** INAPPROPRIATE TIMING OF RULE CHANGES ***

Absurdly, Moe-Larry-Curly issued their ruling not long before the start of a game; when instead it should have been issued the evening before a REST day. Mocking us, or indicating their dark sense of humor, or their incompetence, they began their list of changes by saying...

"In order that the World Championship can continue running smoothly, the Appeals Committee has decided:"

*** KRAMNIK TO BLAME ALSO ***

Kramnik should not have quit. Being morally right is insufficient justification for quitting. Kramnik should have competed knowing a champion needs the emotional fortitude to absorb an unfairness by the referees, and to absorb directly implied accusations of cheating by his opponent.
(Of course Topalov knows Kramnik is not cheating, but that is not the point.)

Unlike Kramnik, Topalov did not quit. Topalov merely threatened to quit: big difference.

*** DANAILOV DESERVES CREDIT ***

Congratulations to Danailov. He exploited Moe-Larry-Curly with skills Kramnik's team lacks and may not even comprehend.

Yes the Danailov-Topalov protest was worse than graceless and undignified. But Danailov's job is to help his client Topalov win the match, by any dirty means that may be necessary (so long as it is legal). Similarly, an American lawyer is blameworthy if he puts niceness over the interests of his paying client.
For Topalov's backing of the Danailov-Topalov complaint, the judgment of Topalov's honor is against a higher moral standard, because Topalov is a player.

Kramnik's team should have issued a loud protest within 1 hour of the Danailov-Topalov letter. Instead we heard nothing until AFTER the ruling. That delay was a huge blunder. American President-to-be Bill Clinton taught us that in his 1992 campaign.

Gene Milener
http://CastleLong.com/

"In the meantime a special press conference was being held by FIDE Deputy President Georgios Makropoulos. At around 17:00h Kramnik arrived to take part in the press conference.

First Kramnik exchanged some words with Makropolous, asking whether there was any reason to suspect that he might be using a computer. Makropoulos stated that, contrary to the claim in Carsten Hensel's open letter the contracts for the World Championship do not state clearly that the restrooms must be equipped with bathrooms. For this reason the protest is irrelevant.

To this Vladimir Kramnik replied that Georgios Makropolous and Zurab Azmaiparashvili of the Appeals Committee were very good friends of Silvio Danailov, and that their actions were clearly biased in favor of Topalov.
...

Vladimir Kramnik will probably insist that game five be played out on the board and that his demands be met. He feels deeply offended by the suspicion that has been raised against him and the intrusion on his privacy. He will remind the officials that a number of very severe checks are in place to insure that the rest rooms are tamper proof, and that in fact electronic noise is being generated to prevent any form of electronic communication within and in the vicinity of the playing venue."
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3377

Again:

- very severe checks are in place to insure that the rest rooms are tamper proof

- electronic noise is being generated to prevent any form of electronic communication within and in the vicinity of the playing venue

It should be clear by now that the allgations of cheating are not to be taken seriously. They are psychological warfare or perhaps something even more sinister (in collusion with the Appeals Committee).

XChess, Kirsan has already just spoken out on the official site, hasn't he? I can hardly see that he's supporting Kramnik... (see below)

Mig's criticism of Topalov is well grounded.

This is in general a good time to root for someone who has a history of sickness but still decides to fight instead of a healthy guy who's nothing but a sore looser right now.

In my humble opinion the match will not be continued. We entered it with two disputed WC's. We're ending it with ONE official Water Closet, ONE still disputed World Classical Champ (Kramnik) and ONE World Class Clown (Topalov).

This is unless a miracle occurs and it is ALL IN YOUR HANDS VESELIN. COME ON! BE A SPORTSMAN AND REPLAY GAME 5!!!

Jens in Stockholm

***
Below the scribblings of a mad man... Maybe the only good thing in this is that Putin will understand how incompenent he is and liberate Kalmykia from his rule...

Sochi, 29 September 2006

GM V. Kramnik

Dear Vladimir,

I am currently in Sochi, at meeting of meeting of the Heads of the Regions of the South Russian Region of the Russian Federation led by the President of Russia V. Putin.

I have carefully read your open letter of today addressed to me, and I hereby inform you of my full trust in the members of the Match Appeals Committee and their latest decision taken in respect of the appeal of Topalov’s team dated 28 September 2006.

I am also asking you in good faith to continue your participation in this match for the sake of the principles of our sport and prevention of the destruction of our long-sought efforts to organize this World Championship match, which is of utter importance for the whole world.

Millions of chess fans in the whole world are following this match with great interest and are looking forward for the just outcome produced over the chessboard and not from exchanging open letters which we are receiving from both teams. The Republic of Kalmykia and me personally as well as the Russian Chess Federation with its President, Mr. A. Zhukov have done our best in order to secure excellent conditions for the both participants. Therefore, I am kindly asking you to respect all these steps taken towards the smooth organization of the event.

Yours sincerely,
Kirsan Ilyumzhinov
President

GhostGator,

A ruling by the 'ref' in chess would be the Arbiter. That is not what is at stake here. This was not the 'touching of a piece' issue or some other rules infraction, which is what referees and umpires are for.

This was the ruling of an appeals committee that, it appears, clearly violated the rules of the match itself.

abc,
I did not intend to insult you.
But your opinion on toilet scandal is narrow-spirited, IMHO. Sharing the toilet is 5% of the whole picture.
The case is very similar to blackmailing. You agree to pay once, you pay ever.
Topalov already voiced 4 protests during first 4 games played (Sept 22, 24, 28, 29). All of them were targeting Vlad's privacy and relaxation conditions. And every new one was more and more insulting compared to previous ones. Almost all of them were satisfied by appeals committee. Those which were declined were replaced by another conditions with similar effect on Kramnik's playing conditions. And even more, releasing tapes to Topalov will let Topalov's team members to analyse Kramnik's reaction and behavior during games to help Topalov find his weaknesses.
By the way, some demands by Topalov (using the public bathroom) would make cheating and provocations much easier. So who is really willing to cheat?

Of course they're psychological warfare. Earlier on in the thread I called it a meta-chess game.

If Kramnik succeeds in getting Kirsan back to Elista to put the heavy on Danailov, and if that actually works, then he will have outplayed them in the meta game.

Gawd, I've been affected for life by growing up on K-K.

gmnotyet,

Danailov tried to disrupt Kramnik's playing routine(in this case taking frequent walks to the toilet, which he did in his match against Kasparov as well) by spreading blatant lies about his personal hygiene, not to mention implying that Kramnik is cheating. This is plain low. Fischer talking ridiculous rubbish and playing fantastic chess is one thing; Danailov demanding that videotapes of Kramnik in the toilet are made public is completely different. He reasoned that Topalov wouldn't be able to defeat Kramnik at chess, so he started this repulsing campaign to throw Kramnik off balance and deteriorate his play.

Kramnik overreacted, just as Danailov hoped; however, I cannot say I blame him. If you are a fan of Kasparov you may disagree with me, but I think that Kramnik is a very honourable man and simply cannot stand being openly vilificated. For him it is no longer a question of where to take a piss or wash his face, it is now a question of pride. I think he realises that Danailov is just badmouthing him to make him feel bad, but cannot allow himself to wave it aside.

It all comes down to priorities. Kramnik himself once said, 'There are moments in life when money is not the first priority.' I think that for him, this is one of those moments, and I admire him for standing up for his rights.

Of course I would like to see the match actually taking place, but if Kramnik walks out, I will support his decision wholeheartedly.

To: Severin,

You wrote: >

A simple search on the word "contract" would have shown the following statement.

Graeme wrote: >

To: Severin,

You wrote: "you should read more carefully. I don't find anyone claiming that 'Topalov ... has broken his contract'"

I read very carefully, a simple search on the word "contract" would have shown the following statement.

Graeme wrote: "Topalov is taking the heat because he's the one in breach of contract."

Danailov has not helped Topalov at all with his shenanigans, even if it allows him to keep the official FIDE title.

Kazhimdjanov and Ponomariov were both FIDE champions, but this accorded them little or no respect. In fact, having the title "world champion" next to their name hurt their standing if anything, since it could only be seen as a joke since everyone knew they were not the real best players.

Topalov's title, if he keeps it after this, will also be more of a joke than anything. Instead of being respected as one of the top two or three players in the world, he will be looked down upon as a false world champion. What does he gain by this?

I think I'm one of the rare people that believe the match might resume. You shouldn't underestimate Kirsan's abilities to pull of something here. Danailov and Hansen might be smart but not comparable to Kirsan. I hope Topalov believes in his abilities one day and get a decent manager one day.

I wonder what Kasparov is thinking about this mess. Maybe Mig already talked to him?

I wonder if clever Mr. Danailov has ever considered what he is doing to his client's reputation. (Speaking for myself, he has tarnished it almost beyond redemption; I doubt I am alone.)

And incidentally, I can readily imagine that Garry K. is very happy that he has left the circus.

Niceforkinmove

In the scenario that we now agree on, there would have to be clear written rule that the temperature is to be 70 to 85. If it says "comfortable temperature" and then somebody asks for the temperature to be raised from 85 to 86, we have to argue about whether or not 86 is comfortable and should the committee decide it is, then the match should go on.

The rule cited by Kramnik in his press release is not violated by the committee's actions.

Or perhaps you are saying that the only appeals the Committee should hear is ones claiming instance of violation of players' agreements?

It is really odd that Kramnik is only now claiming that the Appeals Committee is bious. Did he not know its makeup prior to the match and at the time he signed his contract? If the composition of the committee is really so obviously bious, why did he not appeal it earlier?

No problem, FIDE can just host a match between Karpov and Timman instead.

Forfeits can be undone sometimes. Fischer's Game 12 forfeit against Reshevsky might have been reversed if he had continued playing. The problem was that he would have had to play Game 13 before the ruling on Game 12 came through, which he was unable to do.

His Game 2 forfeit against Spassky was never reversed because he was in the wrong there. The cameras were in the contract. Also, he was a no-show. Kramnik, on the other hand, did show up for the game, and is fighting to uphold the contract rather than breach it. So the ruling theoretically could be reversed. (Doesn't mean it will be, though, but it has happened in other cases.)

Basically, if the conditions legally agreed upon by both sides did not exist, then the game never legally began. It'd be like starting the clock without a board present. If FIDE doesn't recognize that, then the Committee of Arbitration for Sport (which has ruled against FIDE before) probably will.

Where is Max Euwe, where is Bessel Kok? Fischer, Spasski, Topalov, Kortsnoj, Karpov. The story repeats itself. is it already time for a Western Chess Union? Back to the 19th Century, nice title for a chess-movie.

at the end of the day it is kramnik that did not sit down at the table. -- over a bathroom.

For those who understand rusian language I am posting the official appeal of Topalov's crew.
http://media.abv.bg/img.phtml?id=168648

has a world championship ever started and not finished?

To: Sonar,

You wrote a very articulate and seemingly well reasoned post, but there are a couple of things which bother me. First, you seem to be privy to Danailov's real intentions. Or could it be possible that you are only putting Danailov's intentions in a negative light in order to make your argument seem more reasonable than it really is? Why shouldn't one assume that Danailov was suspicious of Kramnik's behavior (as Danailov claims)? As for your claim that Danailov was "spreading blatant lies," the press release makes it clear that he received his information from so-called "technical experts." I seriously doubt that Danailov would have written such a statement if he knew it could be easily refuted. I would be inclined to believe that Danailov was simply repeating what his "technical experts" had told him. If so, his statement would not have been a lie, at worst merely a mistake.

Second, you claim that Kramnik overreacted, and yet you would nonetheless support him if he walks out. Does that sound fair?

I hope they resolve the issue somehow so that the players can decided the championship over the board.

THE CURIOUS THING IS THAT AS WELL AS REFUSING REMATCHS FROM KASPAROV AFTER 2000, KRAMNIK KNOWS THAT IF HE LEAVES THE MATCH, PEOPLE WOULD SEE HIM AS WINNER ... SO HE IS IN PERFECT SITUATION OF LEAVING.

In other words, for Kramnik is not bad if the match is over, is bad for Topalov.

I just got home from work to check out the latest game and instead heard the news.

I'm only a patzer but I've been playing chess for 30 years and I love the game. So at the moment I don't care who is at fault - as far as I am concerned Kramnik, Topalov and FIDE can all go to hell.

All the time I have wasted following the WCC recently could have been better spent just playing and enjoying chess. If by some unlikely chance Kramnik and Topalov complete this match, I won't be watching and I couldn't care less which of the prima-donnas 'wins'.

Danilov is a rat. The appeals committee basically issued a response that said "Although the appeal has no merit, we agree to the requests of the appeal"... This is pure cheating by FIDE and "Their Boy" Topalov, plain and simple.. Hopefully Putin made it known to Kirsan that this sort of behavior should not stand.

I always take pride of the fact that chess is the only sport where you start and finish a game with a handshake regardless of its outcome and whether your oponnent is old or young, rich or poor. Now it appears that the dignity of the royal game has been stained by the outrageous behavior of Topalov.

He has not only resorted to dirty tricks to derail a match he was losing but also brought what might be a sad ending to his chess career. I am not sure if any chess tournament organizer will risk to end up having a chaotic tournament by inviting him in the future.

at the end of the day it is kramnik that did not sit down at the table. -- over a bathroom.

Posted by: kiitos at September 29, 2006 15:19

Yes, if I had been in Kramnik's position, wild horses could not keep me away from the chessboard.

A bathroom??? You've got to be kidding me.

The notion that Kramnik has been cheating is byeond absurd. Still, in addition to those who've pointed out the security measures in place to prevent cheating, there are some really obvious practical and logical points:

(1) Kramnik is, we can all agree, a clever man. If he wanted to cheat, he would hardly attempt it 50 times in a single game, would he? Even a neophyte cheater would consider that would be stupid beyond belief.

(2) How long does it take to get from the chessboard to the rest room and back? Multiply that time by 50. Does Kramnik have any time to actually make moves at the board?

(3) There is the point that, even if he's not going to the bathroom to cheat, Kramnik is still showing poor sportsmanship by "disrupting" Topalov's concentration in going to and from the table all the time. But (a) aren't there some players who essentially like to do nothing at the board but make the required move and wander off? And (b) what should it matter to Topalov where Kramnik has gone once he's left the board? Unless he's in Topalov's sightline or is plodding around noisily like an elephant I can't see why it's any of Topalov's business.

I was very critical of the way that Kramnik essentially forced Kasparov out of professional chess, by denying him the opportunity to play for the one thing that would have kept him in the game. Nonetheless, Kramnik appears to be a class act next to the mean-spirited, selfish clown that is Topalov. And I don't for one minute excuse Topalov from culpability -- as if to lump him in with his manager would be pernicious "guilt by association". The man's a grown-up (we think); he chose his manager: he answers for his manager's actions; that's what "representation" means. It's as simple as that. Topalov is no pawn; he's just an idiot.

An the award for the biggest jerk goes to...

www.chessbase.com/news/2006/elista/savinov21.jpg

He accomplish a lot of things today:

- With his letter, took this as a match between Bulgaria (by calling himself manager of the Bulgarian team) and Russia, played in Russian land.

- He did something that even gossip of cheating was not able to do: To make some people root for the best defender of the game instead of the current best attacking player.

- He shows that nothing is not going to stop him to use whatever method to give a win to his client ... even at the cost of his client itself.

- He put again Chess in the newspapers.

It is incredible that the three most divulgued new in chess this year (reinforcing the bad reputation and stereotypes on chess players) were:

- "Gormally punch over Aronian in the chess Olympiad because of a girl"

- "Computer cheating in a US open by using a phonito"

- All this crap of accusations on this match
(Kramnik saying that he does not accept to continue if he is not allowed to be in his own bathroom and that he is more interested in a soccer game that a game, because the game was too easy ... Topalovs team accusations)

- THE TRUTH IS, NONE OF THESE GUYS WON A LEGITIMATE AND DESERVED WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP ...
AND STILL THEY FIGHT TO BE CALLED A TRUE CHAMPION? WHO IS GOING TO ACCEPT THAT LIE?

Looks like Veselin belives in the bright future. He will get his 500 grands, and will face Radjabov soon. Who cares what people say about him and what publicity chess got in mass media?
As a popular Russian movie hero says "Good wife, good home - what else is needed for a man to face the old age".
Just look at his happy face after he finally crashed an absent Kramnik over the board as he loves:
http://chessbase.com/news/2006/elista/savinov20.jpg

Something folks miss here -- the contract specifies the playing conditions, and presumably, the players were shown the accomidations prior to the match starting and both agreed that the conditions as presented fulfilled the contract.

This is the meaning of the sentance "By starting the match both participants agreed all the playing conditions de facto and de jure and the conditions are therefore legally binding."

On the matter of "de facto" changes, we have the removal of the live monitors. On the matter of "de jure" changes is the changes to the breakroom/bathroom.

Kramnik's team is right that agreeing to start the match was agreement that the conditions of the contract were met. By changing items in the contract that are not clearly specified, but have none-the-less been present to the players as the fulfillment of contractual obligations, those de jure items became part of an implied contract.

gmnotyet:

And the bathroom would be the first infringement...next, Topalov and his posse would accuse Kramnik of taking illegal drugs embedded in his morning donut...next, his sheets would need to be 'Danailov-approved', etc., etc., it would never end. Appeal after appeal after appeal...oh wait, that IS what happened!

Given the fact that this is the FOURTH appeal by the Topalov Posse, I'm amazed Kramnik put up with it that long.

I had a sliding respect for Topalov. The Public so wants Kramnik to lose because he plays 'boring' chess - what is that? Exciting Chess can be analogous to 'Mistake-Ridden' chess.

But now, instead of a match, we have Topalov levying an unfounded, indirect accusation of cheating by the world's only LEGITIMATE World Chess Champion (Kramnik, anyone remember whom he defeated???), and not some punk like Topalov who got lucky in ONE tournament, and even then was accused of cheating by Dolmatov (ah, the good old days...)...Call Me FIDE Champ!

FIDE Chump more likely.

Ridiculous appeals/complaints coming from the losing side of a match who felt he was 'much the better player'.

Forfeit is the ONLY way Topalov can win a game in this match.

Pascual:

You don't think the eunich-ification of Kasparov by Kramnik in 2000 was legitimate? Kasparov, the widely accepted best player in the world by FAR at that time?

Vladimir Kramnik 2770 Garry Kasparov 2849
Final Score: Kramnik 8.5 - 6.5 Kasparov

A rating difference of 79 points? I suppose he was not in Kasparov's class, eh?

Out of these two champions, Kramnik is far and away the more legitimate - only legitimate Champion.

Either Topalov is a disgraceful liar or he's been brainwashed by handlers who are. It comes to the same. Of course both players know this dispute has nothing to do with toilets. As Kasparov has said, matches are usually won off the board, not on it. (50 trips to the toilet? Wha? Even the appeals committee said that was an exaggerration. The real number is probably half that. But we'll never know because the only hard evidence has been turned over to team Topalov).

Topalov's team panicked because they saw the handwriting on the wall that Kramnik would probably cruise to victory. All their--and, to a debatable extent, the appeals committee's--personal financial interests are tied to Topalov winning games, and they had visions of defaulting on loans, not buying the wife the car she wants, having to get a real job, etc. So they hatched a dirty, bush-league trick. Despicable.

As others have said, Kramnik should walk. He is the World Champion in the line that stretches back through Kasparov, Fischer, Botvinnik, Lasker, Steinitz.... This championship is a treasure unworthy of the back-room, double-dealing, penny-ante shenanigans of boy-emperor Kirsan and Topalov's goons.

My days as a chess spectator are over until we get a dignified match between Kramnik and Anand.

Steven Craig Miller,

I stand corrected. I didn't find "the blatant false accusations against Topalov", but obviously it should have been a singular.

http://www.worldchess2006.com/main.asp?id=1006

The pictures in this link are really great. They do speak louder than words. I especially enjoy the one where Kramnik's room is full of people and Kramnik is being frisked by policeman with a metal detector while Topalov is relaxing in the conform of his restroom. And of course, the smiling Topalov with the scoresheet is a classic. It is so good Topalov should put it on his resume. Maybe this picture will be his most famous photo, kinda like that Fischer's crazy rebel pic.

If anyone should doubt Kramnik's moral right to protest the events of the last 24 hours, consider the news headlines that are being generated. The Daily Telegraph: "Russian Chess Champion Accused of Cheating in Toilet". Newspapers go for the lowest common denominator, in this case that Kramnik is a cheat. He has every right, even the responsibility, to set the record straight. He cannot be expected to play championship chess at the same time.

"If anyone should doubt Kramnik's moral right to protest the events of the last 24 hours, consider the news headlines that are being generated. The Daily Telegraph: "Russian Chess Champion Accused of Cheating in Toilet". Newspapers go for the lowest common denominator, in this case that Kramnik is a cheat. He has every right, even the responsibility, to set the record straight. He cannot be expected to play championship chess at the same time.
Posted by: paul dearey at September 29, 2006 16:04"

That's the most insightful comment of the day. It's absolutely spot on.

Hopefully Mig will later write a strong piece in support of Kramnik with (we can hope) quotes from Kasparov.

"Topalov will be the new official World Champion of chess."

More like "the new official Water Closet of chess."

Mr Miller,

Danailov's real intentions are far from inscrutable. It is obvious that Kramnik was neither using computer assistance nor receiving suspicious signals in his first two games against Topalov; he missed a mate in two, for God's sake. Then why did Danailov write that degrading letter in the first place? I think everyone can see the answer: to make Kramnik feel uncomfortable so that Topalov can take advantage of his few chances to even the score. In his first open letter Danailov claimed that Kramnik goes to the toilet fifty times per game, which is not only a serious physical challenge for any human being but also false, as the Appeals Committee pointed out in their response. I am sure that Danailov knew this from the very beginning, but, as I already said, making an actual complaint was not among his objectives when he published an open letter talking over Kramnik's private habits.

I don't know Danailov personally, but just reading about him and looking at his pictures gives me an idea of what kind of person he is, and I don't like it. He has the image of a mean, covetous man who would do anything to achieve his goals, including fabricating lies and going through other people's restroom security videos.

As for Kramnik overreacting, yes, he did. Objectively speaking, the best thing for him would have been to say nothing and keep playing. But from a moral point of view accepting such abuse is completely inadmissible and Kramnik is doing exactly the right thing by not agreeing to FIDE's terms. Diplomacy is a good thing, but sometimes you just have to stand up and say "**** you". I know I would have done the same, chess world and big money be damned. This is why I can relate to Kramnik's reaction.

I hope all Russian GMs in the future never will play in a tournament where Topalov is participating.

A manager does nothing without his client's express permission. As such, Danilov is a direct extension of Topalov's wishes. Danilov is not at fault for the protests, rather it is Topalov entirely. In fact it would be completely irresponsible for Danilov not to file the protest if Topalov desired it.

Guess what, I wish that Kirsan does NOT succeed in getting the match resumed.

I wish that the Russian Superfinal be made an open candidates tournament.

I wish that the match tradition is kept alive outside FIDE.

Guys, open up to a new horizon, this is a blessing in disguise!

Jon Jacobs,

I usually agree with what you have to say. However, you have make a common error that is being perpetrated upon the American Public at this time. I feel it is important to talk about this point.

you say you are soon holding a meeting in New York to discuss cheating and that your feeling is that players should be required to accept the idea that they have nothing to hide and therefore are willing to be searched.

Well consider this.

the police are banging on your house door and want to inspect your house. if you have nothing to hide you should not mind.

the police have just pulled you over in your car. they want you to get out and give your permission for them to search your car. if you have nothing to hide you should not mind.

you are walking down the street. a police officer wants to search you. if you have nothing to hide you will not mind.

now imagine that all the police are white. and you are black. Imagine you are shiite and the police are sunni. etc etc.

now my question for you. Why did the founders of America include the bill of rights into the constitution. why does it say no searches without a judge's permission and requiring a good reason.

Gee whiz I dont know. if you don't have anything to hide then let me look to make sure you do not have something hidden up your rear end.

It does not work Jon.

Kramnik is correct. His dignity does not allow it.

everyone should talk to their medical doctor about the medical condition that Kramnik is suffering from.

1 most important that he keep moving around. sitting in a chair for a long time is the worst thing he can do for his condition.

2 He has diareah with blood. looks real good telling all the pretty ladies. would you like to spend some time with me. I have diareah and blood keeps coming out. come one Jon. give the man some privacy. this is about chess not about the embarrassment of his medical condition.

and lastly. Topalov and Danailov know all about these problems and they are going for the juglar using his health and his dignity against him. Kramnik does not have to go public with these embarrasing statements to play chess.

I have a solution. I will just not enter any tournaments where the tournament director might ask me to pull down my pants so he can see if I have a computer chip up my @$$. I dont cheat. and I go to play chess not to play games with control freeks who want to invade my privacy.

Kramnik is 100% correct here. good for him. he is standing up for what is RIGHT.

Topalov is behaving like what I flush down the toilet.

Kramnik's second open letter: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3378

This development basically confirms my hypothesis that the match system is not a healthy way of agreeing upon who is the world champion. The match system gives too much power to the players.
Witness the Fischer Match, the Karpov and Kasparov matches the aborted Kasparov Shirov match, the aborted Kasparov Kazimdzanov and Kasparov Ponomariov matches etc. Now the Topalov - Kramnik fiasco.

The tournament system is the best way to go. An 8 player DRR event with the 8 players selected in advance with objective criteria not changed in the midst of a cycle with no privileges to the defending champion is the need of the hour.

To hell with matches !!

I love that Kramnik is making a written apology a condition for his resumption of the match! Go Vlad!

Surely someone on Topalov's team realizes how bad this is making their guy look . . .

Frank, you regularily flush World Champions down your toilet??? ;o)

Com'on guys!!! 8:-(

This is over-reaction and not only from Kramnik!

While Topalov’s camp was playing ridiculous mind games, the absurd occurrence is the decision to go along with part of the complaint by the appeals committee. It appears to me Topalov wanted to not shake hands and have a separate press conference to get into Kramnik’s head. I highly doubt he thought the appeals committee would actually rule in his favor. I don’t think he ever intended to forfeit games or abandon the championship. He wanted to play under protest, basically to irritate Kramnik. Topalov uses aggressive psychology, consistent with his aggressive style of chess. Unfortunately the “appeals committee” unexpectedly (in Topalov’s mind in my opinion) showed severe partisanship and agreed to one of the bogus complaints. Who would have thought it, FIDE bungles again due to partisanship. Note Kramnik faulted FIDE (appeals committee) not Topalov.

Well, the solution is to ban humans from World Championship matches and just let computer programs play them. No worry about piss breaks then. Just the quality of the electrical power source and unwanted radio waves in the playing room!

Seirawan in his own open letter makes this point:

"...The Appeals Committee agreed that the complaint had some basis and decided that the solution was that the players would henceforth share a common bathroom. In so doing the Appeals Committee made a clearly erroneous decision, which it should now reverse with good grace. ...The Committee made an error and its decision should be reversed. Veselin Topalov followed the proper channels of protocol to lodge a complaint, and his complaint was upheld. It was the Appeals Committee which over-reacted, exceeded its authority and failed to respect the contract signed by FIDE."

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3379

Well, those are separate requests, it seems - he requests proceeding with game 5 "on the conditions that were accepted prior to the start of the match"

and then he lists some other requests which I don't think looks like other conditions for continuing the match. But starting over from the agreed conditions is of course something that he is completely entitled to demand, and explains why in his letter. But perhaps I'm reading it wrongly.

The rat Danailov apologizing would be a nice bonus, but not going to happen ...

Insinuating that someone is cheating when you are losing, makes you a joke, especially with not a shred of proof. Topolov and his team deserve all the mockery heaped upon them.

dirtbag,
Top players already got annual tournaments like Linares, Dortmund, Sofia, WZ, etc.
Why should we consider a winner of a tournament a Champion? What makes him different from winners of other tournaments which can have stronger list of participants?
Such Champion will be nothing. Zero. Null.
Only the Champion who won the title in the match with previous Champion is legitimate. And Challenger shall be decided based on qualification events so any chess player can go on try. The real WC (do not confuse with water closet) cycle is an absolute requirement, not a wishful element to bring back the dignity to chess.

dirtbag, you truly are, well, a dirtbag!

The Tournament system is flawed already! It brought you Topalov!

To: Sonar,

You wrote: "from a moral point of view accepting such abuse is completely inadmissible."

Surely, you can't be thinking that sharing a restroom with one other person constitutes abuse, could you? Or how about taking precautions to ensure that no one is cheating, does that constitute abuse? Does walking through a metal detector constitute abuse? Does a video camera constitute abuse? What abuse?

Topa and Danailov having a good ole time! "Wrecking the Championship feels so good -specially when winning by playing seemed impossible!"

http://www.worldchess2006.com/main.asp?id=1006

Please pay attention to the smiles and smirks of very content(and jolly) nature by Topalov and specially Danailov.

Miller, are you really that dense or do you just hate to give in???

It's abuse to accuse one of the greatest players of the game of cheating. Plain and simple.

Steven Craig Miller,

I think the point about the bathrooms is very relevant taking into account Kramnik's medical condition.

I consider it 'abuse' if I have to really go to the bathroom after my girlfriend has 'graced it with her presence'....know what I mean?

All kidding aside, seperate bathrooms is a good idea for both players. One less avenue of complaint (you'd have thought, anyway, Danailov notwithstanding) available to them.

I can see a player complaining his opponent didn't leave the bathroom in a pristine condition, and file an appeal or some such nonsense, or was in there too long, etc.

I reallly love the letter by Kramnik citing agreements/articles, and asking for an apology from Topalov's camp. Danailov/Topalov are looking more and more like real asses here.

Danailov is a huckster, plain and simple. He's be selling used cars in the States, if he was here.

It should be noted that this isn't any way Topalov's fault, in the same way when Danailov got all stupid and ruined Ponomariov's career. The only fault of Ponomariov and Topalov was hiring a mafioso scumbag like Danailov in the first place.

Insisting that Kramnik uses a shared bathroom instead of the private prior to the match agreed to bathroom, is just as nonsensical as demanding that Kramnik must no longer drink coffee, just tea, since by drinking coffee he may be cheating in some completely unsubstantiated way.

It's harassment, abuse, sabotage, mental terror.

And no, it makes no difference if he drinks 5 or 50 cops of coffee during a game, if he only barely sips or "drinks for real", or just like the smell of the coffee. It's Kramnik's own damn business, and complainers about coffee (or toilet) conditions should have voiced their objections prior to the match or remain forever silent.

"My prediction: Kirsan comes back and orders Danilov to find some sort of comprimise with the Kramnik camp. The forfeit will get annulled, and Kramnik will get his toilet back. The match will continue, and Kirsan gets himself some nice publicity as the man who saved the match."

I wish I could be so optimistic, but, from the tone of Kirsan's letter to Kramnik, it seems that he really doesn't give a crap if Kramnik withdraws from the match. In that likely event he will simply proclaim his puppy as the undisputed world champion. That will suit him fine.

Mr Miller,

Having someone count the times you enter the toilet, get the number wrong and announce it to the whole world is abuse. Having this someone insinuate that you are maybe kind of possibly cheating in the bathroom is also abuse. Being sanctioned because of this someone's inane talk is abuse. Kramnik is well within his rights to demand an apology.

There is, of course, no rational basis for believing that Kramnik cheated. If Kramnik was going to use computer assistance during a world champion match, he wouldn't draw attention to himself by making 50 trips to the bathrooms; the entire back stage area is checked before each game, and radio waves bombard the site to prevent electronic communication; the games show no indicia of cheating, and the decisive results come more from Topalov's mistakes and blunders than from Kramnik's brilliance; there are huge risks associated with cheating on a world stage, etc. So any rational mind would presumably consider the implied accusation in Danailov's complaints to be utterly baseless.

However, the Appeals Committee upheld the complaint, in a way that Kramnik was almost guaranteed to react strongly too. I suppose if the Appeals Committee were made up of paragons of virtue who were themselves beyond suspicion, you could make an argument that Kramnik had gotten a fair shake and that he should now toe the line. Unfortunately, two of the members of the Appeal Committee are rumored to be among the most corrupt persons in chess; buying elections is only one of the accusations made against them. How can we expect Kramnik to accept the legitimacy of an Appeals Committee whose members are so unsuited to the task of being fair and even-handed? Particularly when they appear to have endorsed a protest that was evidently baseless? This situation is symptomatic of the larger problems with FIDE: a corrupt, special interest driven institution whose legitimacy (or illegitimacy) sinks ever lower.

At this point it's becoming pretty clear that the fix is in. Danailov is no fool, and now that it is clear that Topalov was going to lose the match over the board, he is implementing Plan B. Plan B might work, but it is not chess nor should anyone mistake it for such.

I can't agree with those who suggest that Topalov should not be held responsible for Danailov's conduct. Danailov is acting as Topalov's agent in everything pertaining to this match. Topalov cannot take the benefits of Danailov's outrageous conduct without accepting his share of the blame. I simply don't believe that Danailov exercies a Svengali-like control over Topalov, or that Topalov is some innocent standing mute. I wouldn't be surprised if Topalov proved to be the prime mover behind all of this, motivated by his growing fear of Kramnik's skills over the board.

In the past, sportsmanship and honor were considered important, even as important as sporting performance. If Topalov retains his title in this way, he will be no sportsman and he will have acted without honor. Nevertheless, he will probably make money out of it, and he will always find some supporters in a chess world where many people still worship the mentally-ill Fischer.

A bad day for chess, and for those who love the game.

Myron Samsin posted this URL, referring to the Russian Chess Federation's reaction...

http://www.64.ru/?/ru/articles/item=1210

I have translated the Russian Chess Federation's posting (URL above) by using...

http://translation2.paralink.com/

THE APPLICATION OF THE RUSSIAN CHESS FEDERATION

1) to cancel as unethical decision of the appeal committee, resolving to look through videorecording rooms of rest of the participants, made by a judiciary board, members of commands as it is intrusion into private life of players, and also gives the information on how they think and as react to courses.

2) to cancel the decision of appeal committee of a match on closing in individual rooms of rest of participants of bathrooms.

3) to replace members of appeal committee.

4) to continue a match Kramnik ? Topalov from account 3-1 in favour of Kramnik at strict observance of all conditions on which the match has been begun. The Russian chess federation hopes that President FIDE and Organizing committee will show wisdom and will not give Topalov's command to break match which has unsuccessfully developed for it.

Nothing new in their letter. I doubt the RCFed has any weight to throw around here. This ain't the 1960's.

Gene Milener

Shirov remains, as always, a voice of reason:

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3379

Can we please have him as FIDE president? Please?

Shirov?

I bet even Shirov is on Kramnik's side in this...

David Wagle, You must mean 'Seirawan' instead of 'Shirov'. But true, Yasser might be good in FIDE - then again almost anyone would...compared to the bunch running it now.

Chess is dead. FIDE is dead. FIDE WC is dead. RIP +2006.

Mr. X -- yes I do mean Seirawan ... I have no idea why I typed "Shirov" instead.

If Mr. Seirawan's compromise is not accepted, then I feel Kramnik is the only legitmate world champion of chess, having crushed Topalov by a score of 3-1. FIDE would have no credibility left. IF Kramnik chose to hand select an unknown 2500 as challenger to defend his title against, so be it.

Hopefully Mr. Seirawan's proposal will be accepted. Any other outcome looks like a complete disaster for the chess world.

"If anyone should doubt Kramnik's moral right to protest the events of the last 24 hours, consider the news headlines that are being generated. The Daily Telegraph: "Russian Chess Champion Accused of Cheating in Toilet". Newspapers go for the lowest common denominator, in this case that Kramnik is a cheat. He has every right, even the responsibility, to set the record straight. He cannot be expected to play championship chess at the same time.
Posted by: paul dearey at September 29, 2006 16:04"

That's the most insightful comment of the day. It's absolutely spot on.

Hopefully Mig will later write a strong piece in support of Kramnik with (we can hope) quotes from Kasparov.

Posted by: AZ79 at September 29, 2006 16:07

This is definitely the stupidest and most uninsightful comment of the day.

Seirawan is right on the money again.

Kirsan would do well to include him in his speed dial from now on.

As a Kramnik fan, I have to take back some of the angst against Topalov lately, but reserve my dislike for Danailov. It clearly was the Appeals Committee that dropped the ball on this one.

Let's hope for a Game 5 tomorrow, and a continued, exciting match.

office@fide.com

Spam them. Insult them. Explain them that you don't want to be fide players anymore.

Write to your national federations. Ask them to quit fide. Put up pressure. Be active. Don't just write in a blog.

You feel enough concerned to write here? Then you can write to your chess federation. Act.

Also, from the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5393944.stm

How proud we should be.

I second that, Ruslan.

Tell FIDE what you think of them (I have)

One possible solution:

1. Disregard Topalov, who has destroyed the legitimacy of his own title. He no longer has a valid claim to be World Champion--or rather, his claim is now equal to Khalifman's and Ponomariov's. (I admired him as a player until yesterday, hope to admire him again in the near future, & hope he gets better guidance from a new manager.)

2. Disregard FIDE for WC purposes until the incompetent and corrupt Kirsan is gone. Kramnik should reach out to Kasparov to ratify the Classical WC "lineage."

3. Russian or Indian sponsor(s?) should organize a Kramnik-Anand WC match ASAP (summer 2007?)

4. The same sponsor(s) should invite four top players (say Aronian, Svidler, Leko, and the loser of Kramnik-Anand 2007). Substitute stronger players if available--even Topalov if he promises to behave. Increase Candidates cycle to the traditional eight if possible to play elimination matches to be completed by November 2008, to determine the challenger who will play the winner of Kramnik-Anand for the Classical WC title circa summer 2009.

5. 2009 Classical WC champion must defend title by 2011.

Yes, Bill Brock, that is the ideal approach. The problem will be that probably most of the names cited will not agree to such a plan due to personal motives.

At any rate, a Kramnik-Anand match in 2007 seems to be the best way forward.

That sounds so simple, Bill. All we need is money. On -- and a champion selfless enough not to want to ruin everything for everyone else the minute he gets his grubby mitts on the title. It's not clear that Kramnik is that champion; but Topalov certainly isn't...

A few facts to consider:1) GM Zurab Azmaiparashili(appeals committee member and FIDE official)"played" in a phantom tournament and won by an incredible score, gaining a huge amount of rating points. 2) honorary fide president Florencio Campomanes was CONVICTED in a Philippino court for embezzelment of thousands but was not sent to prison by a merciful judge because he was deemed too old. 3)Fide president Kirsan Ilyumzhinov was "questioned" about the MURDER of a woman, opposition,journalist that was set up under the false pretense of meeting with a source. She was then stabbed to death and her body thrown in a pond. This was alledgedly done by two low level associates of the fide president.

One of the first rules of diplomacy in bringing two warring parties together into a civil discourse is to set agreements that are binding and agreed upon prior to a face-to-face and having a mediator administer these agreements and not show favoritism.

When you screw up this exceedingly basic concept, such as FIDE just did, you lose trust and then no amount of rationale or win-win negotiations can mend things.

Yes, Virginia ... There is a World Champion ... not!!!

Raymond Keene's column in The Times (London): http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2382281.html

Nothing terribly interesting, except the line: This [the proposed "solution" with the lavatories] would be unprecedented in a modern world chess championship contest. It is a recognised convention that when it is not your move you can walk away from the board, but not leave the building.

Just checked the photos from today's events, topalov and danailov smiling and looking realy happy, most pathetic site I ever saw regarding chess. How could the chess world championship end up as a hostage to this gang of thugs ? We all knew that danailov had no scruples but topalov to be revealed as a scum too, that was a surprise. Perhaps we were blinded by the brilliance of his recent victories and couldn't see his true character.

Kirsan is flying to Elista to salvage the wreck, which means a lot to him and therefore a solution will somehow be found in the end. Kramnik wants primarily to replay game 5, and the Bulgarian duo would do anything for money, so I expect a handout from Kirsan should do the trick if everything else fails. Let's hope the match continues and that this will be the last we ever hear about topa and dana ever again.

The match will continue. Ilyumzhinov has too much to lose if it doesn't. And whatever Ilyumzhinov says, goes.

Not "alledgedly" at all. The murder was comitted by 2 of Ilyumzhinov's aids: Two aids of Kirsan Ilyumzhinov confessed to the murder and were imprisoned. However, there has been no proof that Kirsan himself ordered the crime...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larisa_Yudina

"3. Russian or Indian sponsor(s?) should organize a Kramnik-Anand WC match ASAP (summer 2007?)"

Bill Brook: Are you out of you mind? You are not tired of this string of matches with no qualifying cycles, Russian federation obscure things in the past, do you still think that this is going to give a solution to chess problems? Too much nonsense, or too much admiration for Kramnik.

Most chess professionals cannot even have a decent living with chess (unless they have another career), even grandmasters, most of 2600's hardly found tournaments where they can compete and you believe that this kind of ideas will return the credibility to the cycle? This whole idea of fake matches stinks (and FIDE management stinks too).

THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE USES THE SAME CHAMPIONSHIP FORMATS OF THE XIX CENTURY (when hardly we can find a hundred competitive players) , WHEN THERE ARE NOW THOUSANDS OF PROFESSIONAL PLAYERS (thanks to mass media and of course increase in oppulation) THAT THEY WANT TO COMPETE, WAKE UP!

If the basis of the future of chess depends on a match, then professional chess is dead. You forget that the world does not orbit around a couple of chess players. Then, what happens with the 20 or more 2700 players (or close), and other youngsters in the path, some of them preparing for some candidate matches (what probably wont take place): Sorry, your preparation is wasted, because you won't count for the title ... after maybe three years (when you might be out of form).

I wonder how many of the highest rated players is now thinking that chess is not worth anymore, that maybe shey should go and have an alternative to professions, thanks to the foolisness of the Danailovs, Kirsans, Kramniks, Topalovs, etc, who just think in themselves instead of doing the best for respect to the public. Some have more responsability than others, but NONE OF THEM IS INNOCENT IN THIS SITUATION, None Kramnik or Topalov (I won't judge who has more or less merits) has enough respect to be called the world champion, the best player of the world.

Hikaru, maybe you that you were thinking in another activity instead of chess, you have your answer ... because is sad to be smart people wasting their brains by dedicating exclusively to an activity that nowadays, has not enough rewards

Most chess professionals cannot even have a decent living with chess (unless they have another career), even grandmasters, most of 2600's hardly found tournaments where they can compete and you believe that this kind of ideas will return the credibility to the cycle? This whole idea of fake matches stinks (and FIDE management stinks too).
THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE USES THE SAME CHAMPIONSHIP FORMATS OF THE XIX CENTURY (when hardly we can find a hundred competitive players) , WHEN THERE ARE NOW THOUSANDS OF PROFESSIONAL PLAYERS (thanks to mass media and of course increase in oppulation) THAT THEY WANT TO COMPETE, WAKE UP!

Sorry, but the reason Chess can't find sponsorship has nothing to do with the championship format.

It has a lot to do with the total lack of respsectability the Chess Championship holds in the view of potential sponsors. Really, unless you made toliet fixtures, would you want to be putting up the money for this farce?

The other big part is simple demographics -- while hundreds of GM's might try and make a living as professionals, the audience for their sport is very very small. Worldwide viewership on ICC and playchess.com is in the thousands.

Now, if you actually put a respectable organization in charge of chess, then maybe sponsorship could drive public interest. But so long as FIDE remains in charge, there is no hope to raise chess much above it's current fate.

This will turn out to be a cynical bluff by Topalov. Kramnik didn't cave in to the bluff, but Topalov didn't lose anything either; distracting and stressing Kramnik, holding this very private man up to world-wide ridicule, and grabbing himself an extra day to get his chess act together.

Kirsan cannot afford to let this match go down the tubes, and Kramnik will not accept the forfeit.

So the likely scenario is that in the "true spirit of sportsmanship," Topalov will "generously concede" the major points, but will be given a face-saving crumb.

But Topalov, Danailov, and the appeals committee remain in place so the real question is what sort of chicanery they're planning when the match resumes. Topalov will begin with something grotesque; on the order of ostentatiously fiddling with his fly during play.

And if the end of the match approaches with Kramnik in the lead, expect some outrageously disruptive and disgusting conduct from Topalov and/or Danailov during a game.

Dear David,

I agree with that, but I was making the point that the solution to this match is not another match under the same system. It is another system what we need. This does not mean necessarilly abolish matches, this means make them have sense and bring the best players to compite in order to decide finalists, etc.

Chess lacks rotation and of course, lazy federations (like our current fide and others) like that, because this means they don;t need to work too much. They don't need to make serious sponsorship during the whole year, more activity to bring the best players ... nowedays, some of them are basically unemployed. They just believe that handpicking opponents and put them in a match will make happy to all people and then they can be lazy again until the next two years, when the whole building fall out of pieces.

While I support Topalov on the board to win the world championship, I am supporting Kramnik on whatever he did for this recent bathroom disagreement issue. I believe Topalov still has chances to win or tie the match if he continues to play as he is. However, Topalov team, being 3-1 down, started a mind game that should not stop the match from being continnued.

I believe what GM Yaseer Sierawan told as a very good reconciliantion to the dillema of "to play or not to play"? Start tomorrow game 5, in condition like it was earlier, as if nothing happened in-between. Otherwise, I belive chess world will take Kramnik as true world champion irrespective of what FIDE or Topalov himself claims.

-- Ashik

The WC title should not be Kramnik's private property: that is indeed an antiquated notion.

But it's also silly to trust Kirsan's FIDE with the WC title. They can't even organize a Candidates' cycle.

Kramnik needs to play a full match to preserve the legitimacy of the title. It would be nice to hand off administration of that title to a professional entity in 2007.

One would be hard-pressed to find a more legitimate challenger to Kramnik than Anand.

Ok, just saw this news, and I had a feeling Mig would be pretty hot about it.

I do not get it, how in gods name do you friggen cheat while taking a dump? But then again, WTF do you need 50 bathroom breaks? Jesus, have paid security in the bathrooms that let nobody in there but those 2 chess players.. this is not damn rocket science for crying out loud.

Put Mig in there, and if it looks like something going wrong, he could lay the law down.

Anand is better player than both Kramnik and Topalov in all sense. I am waiting to see a title match where Anand is the challenger of the Kramnik-Topalov match winner.

Greg Koster lack of logic is just impressive. I mean, is fine to admire Kramnik, but of course, if somebody does not want to interrupt the match is Topalov... finishing a match prematurely after being losing? On the other hand, Kramnik does not lose anything by finishing the match now, because he will leave winning and with better image to fans. Topalov's team have all the right to make a protest, Kramnik's team have all the right to reply ... but the reason this has trascendence is because of a weak and pathetic federation that fail under pressure of the parts.

(just in case, I respect both Kramnik, Topalov, but I don't consider any of them a worthly champion, I never consider this match as a solution, just wanted to see good chess, hoping that a extraordinary attaker would meet and extraordinary defender and make interesting games, but it seems I wont be satisfied)...

Those pictures that are shown on the official site make Danailov(especially him) and Topalov look like guya that are willing to take the win whatever th price is. But anyway, i'm so disappointed if this hole thing ends with so pathetic way. Kramnik should have played today and Topalov's team shouldn't have raised this ridiculous accusations in the first place. At the end of the day this hole thing doesn't come as a big surprise. FIDE is corrupt (interesting by the way is the last note on Nigel Short's fingernotes on ICC) and are willing to take any means necessary to make Topalov win. Zurab and his comrades (including Danailov) on the commitee make chess look ridiculous.

I think the whole thing is great. I think Topalov is great for being a pain in the arse, I think Kramnik is great for not standing for it, I think the forfeit is great, the acceptance of the forfeit is great, the shady managers, the psychics, coffee, toilets...

It's the same reason I like chess. Lots of drama for no good reason. Pain and study and defeat and elation over an ephemeral nothingness.

Sport, game, call it what you will, to take it this seriously is just... great.

Human drama in all of its ugly glory! Sit back and enjoy - I wager that, 40 years from now, you'll remember this turn of events much more than the inevitable draws!

Ashik, Anand isn't playing better than Kramnik in any sense. Their overall score is 5-4 for Kramnik. Kramnik's score against Kasparov is 5-4, and 13-5 against Topalov.

Kramnik's head to head result make him a deserving world champion.

Seirawan proposal looks like the only reasonable way to continue the match. However, I think it cannot be called a compromise, as it gives to Kramnik most of his requests, and none to the bulgarians.

1.- Return to the original bathrooms. Clear win to Kramnik.
2.- Cancel the forfeit. This is fair, but the bulgarians will not agree easily on this. Another clear win for Kramnik.
3.- Having an attendant in bathrooms. This is a token concession to Danilov, it hardly matters.
4.- Keeping the appeals comittee. Another token concession, as the comittee would be almost powerless after their decisions were reversed.

In sum, although it is the only reasonable way to resume playing, it is asking too much for a Bulgarian team that was needing a lucky break, and they got it.

Yuri
No the agreement would not need to be in writing. Agreements usually are not in writing they are either oral or based on actions of the parites.

The question is did Topalov agree to the layout at the start of the match or not? Clearly if you read the press releases after the inspections you will see he did.

Eduardo,

That's the whole point of it! Danailov & Co were looking for a way to sabotage the match off the board seeing that Topalov shows no signs of being able to win it on the board! Their protests and demands are ridiculous at best and plainly insulting at worst (not to mention they are simply illegal, as they violate both the protocol and the contract!). It is for that reason Seirawan's proposal - a very good and reasonable one! - gives them so little, and it is the very reason they will die before accepting it! They do not want to continue the match, they need to stop the match!

People who are saying that Topalov cannot win this match without trying some underhanded tactic need to get a grip on reality. Look at the games!

Certainly this situation is tragic, but to make that kind of assertion only shows that all the emotion surrounding this controversy is clouding fans' logic.

Such shallow rationale!

i went to the toilet 50 times readin all those comments , is that normal?

Very well, I agree that legally the rule does not need to be in writing (though nobody I know agrees to conditions for a match of this magnitude orally), but this is precisely how you run into problems. If I ask: "Is this setup ok with you?" and you say yes, it is unclear what part of the setup is adjustable and what is set in stone. For example, one would argue that switching the two players' rest areas would not be a significant alteration whereas raising the temperature in one of them by ten degrees would be. That is why you have contracts or "agreements" which set out what the actual terms the parties agree on are.

Living in a real world, I can not consider such an insignificant change as bathroom access rules to be a breach of contract. Danailov's move was a cheap stunt. Kramnik's response however is also overdone. He had reason to suspect staying in the bathroom this much would raise eyebrows and should have either explained his behavior or expressly set out in the contract that he must have limitless acess.

Daaim,

Just recall who initiated those empty protests (Danailov) and who was loosing by 2 points with only 8 games left (Topalov). Granted, Topalov was getting excellent positions but he was unable to convert even the best one (in game 2) - enough to get his manager worried!

Peace...

Daaim, of course Topalov plays strong enough chess to get back into it, but I do believe that he and his team have considered him to be in HUGE trouble after Game 4, and that this is nothing but some underhanded effort. Topalov is quickly realizing that match play is an entirely different animal, and after finding himself in a bit of trouble in Game 3 and unable to even make Kramnik blink in Game 4, the titlist is recognizing that defeating Kramnik in this match is an uphill battle that is tougher than first thought. To be sure, Topalov has spent time despairing over his inability to close games out appropriately at the start of this match. When a man misses clear and obvious mate in 3, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that he begins to doubt his own abilities; we both know that talent alone does not compensate for psychological dissonance. (See the case of Alex Rodriguez of the NY Yankees for a clear example of this.) I, too, believe that Topalov had no reasonable expectation of winning this match, not because he lacks ability, but because his confidence is shaken, and it is tough to refocus on the fly with such high stakes.

Hotep,

Maliq

Yuriy

"He had reason to suspect staying in the bathroom this much would raise eyebrows and should have either explained his behavior or expressly set out in the contract that he must have limitless acess."

As I understood it, he did explain his frequent trips, if not to the public. The same thing happened in the London match and the organizer of the match commented on the current situation saying that Kramnik is in a condition requiring very frequent trips to the bathroom.
I guess that's all you can ask for. You can't expect him to share his bathroom details with the public but you can be sure that if there is an explanation that satisfied the match organizers of the 2000 match, that same explaination should satisfy the present organizers as well...

And, keep in mind, that the players/their teams shouldn't have access to those tapes in the first place...

Yuri

I think we are much closer to agreement.

I agree I would rather this not have gotten under Kramnik's skin as much as it did. It is a shame. I would think Kramnik probably wishes the same. But the fact is it did get under his skin and it probably would have distracted him from the game if he sat down to play it.

If the rules about timing of complaints and rulings had been followed, then perhaps Kramnik woudl have been able to sleep on this and put it in better perspective. Unfortunatley FIDE threw the rules out and this was sprung on Kramnik hours before game five.

I also agree with many of your other points. However, I think we proably can just agree to disagree as to how important the layout was for thier multiple prematch visits and agreements confirming and reconfirming the layout.

Albrecht,

Interesting--but if this has been going on for a while he has done the same thing in Linares, MTel, etc., especially where it was seen by other GMs and Topalov's management. It is surprising nobody has brought it up to date, not even after the current issue developed. Or is this a match-only occurrence?

Even without any tape Kramnik's frequent bathroom trips would have been observed by Danailov. The tapes are just a way to document it.

"Even without any tape Kramnik's frequent bathroom trips would have been observed by Danailov. The tapes are just a way to document it."

No, because we're talking here of restrooms that are accessible only from _within_ their respective rest rooms. That's what got confused a lot in the beginning. The each have a "recreational area" and there is an adjacent toilet that you can only access from within that recreational room.

So how would Danailov know what Kramnik does in his recreational room - assuming Kram is not leaving the door open at all times?

"Interesting--but if this has been going on for a while he has done the same thing in Linares, MTel, etc., especially where it was seen by other GMs and Topalov's management. It is surprising nobody has brought it up to date, not even after the current issue developed."

I don't know. Maybe in a tourney there's a lot of walking around anyway? They don't have recreational facilities for each player. I don't know. It just has popped up here and there in the past couple of days that it happened also in London 2000.

Albrecht,

Take a look here:

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3376

Misha Savinov was able to take several photos of the monitor on Chief Arbiter's table, which displays the view from the cameras in both men's rest rooms. No reason Danailov can't look at the monitor occasionally either especially if Kramnik keeps walking off.

Here are restroom cameras from next day too:

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3377

I will recommend not to hold off until you earn enough money to order goods! You should just get the loan or just term loan and feel fine