Kramnik-Topalov g9

29. Qg2. Watching on playchess and no-one (or iron monster) was considering this move. After Topalov uncorked it - the engines decided they loved it.

Funny.

Topalov won.Takes Lead !!

What Next ?

Topa again rolls over Kramnik..! :-)

As I have said from the beginning... The match will not be easy although we have a BMW (Topa) vs a good Lada (Kramnik).

Topa is way ahead of Kramnik in chess understanding and creativity. As he demonstrated in the first 2 games, only Topa himself can lose this match...

The turn of events after Danailov's machinations is quite disturbing.

This is so depressing. Why can't the good guy win. Just once.

Albrecht, wake up! The good guy is winning..! :-)

It was 100% Rybka upto move 28 where white is totally winning. Many titled players on ICC noted this. Then suddenly he starts playing like a human again. Many of these moves no GM on ICC predicted. It of course wasn't home preparation. Topalov just kept playing the best Rybka moves using 2-3 minutes on each of them. IMPOSSIBLE for a human.

The accusation against Kramnik were made to hide their own cheating. How they transmit the moves to Topalov, this is something we need to look at.

It's something very clever and sophisticated obviously. But the cheater (Topalov) need to be caught red handed and then banned from the world of chess forever.

If you disagree you are borderline naive.

Topalov outplays him again. I'm rooting for Topa because he is the better chessplayer at this time. He can give back the game 5 point and still win this match.

a 39 move BLOWOUT! WOW!

It looked as if topalov was playing against a 2200 rated player!

Russianbear must be drunk and angrily mastvrbating in a corner this morning!

As predicted here come the kneepadding excuse makers - oh danilov hurt kramniks feelings LOL

I agree with ... Giannis.
Topalov is playing the best chess one can watch right now.
He is just struggling to make all games fighting and with spirit.

Topalov moving fast the past two games has kept kramnik from fermats fritz 9 transmissions on the potty and at the board LOSING!

I agree with Susan Polgar's comment that this game looked like the Topalov we've seen since San Luis. He took an extremely aggressive stance and forced his opponent to make tactically correct moves -- which Kramnik failed to do.

Kramnik is a very resourceful player, and he came from behind against Leko to keep his title. I do not count him out But the fact is that, in the 8 games played, only Topalov has both created AND capitalized on winning chances.

Although Kramnik has won two games, in both cases Topalov handed him the win on a silver platter. Those games, of course, count equally in the standings. But no one can expect a player of Topalov's skill to give away the game very often. That he did it twice in a row is remarkable. I'm sure Kramnik would gladly take another win like that if Topalov decides to be so generous. But he probably shouldn't be counting on it.

So now we will see how Kramnik plays from behind. I also expect Topalov to continue to be aggressive. He should not be happy with +1.

It just occurred to me that Topalov actually needs +3 (not +2 as many have said) to guarantee that his forfeit win had nothing to do with his match victory. It is conceivable that Kramnik could have actually won game 5, especially since he had White.

Hey Albrecht, even more depressing than the likelihood that Kramnik's will is now busted are the ignorant grave-dancing posters like Giannis (although the automobile analogy is amusing for its absence of wit and meaning). And Topa will retain a freshly besmirched title...more's the depression for professional chess.

Fermat, you are a goose.

Kindly go away.

Oh my God, what a mess we're in now. As I've said before, I thought the best thing for the Chess world would be for the #1 player & Fide champ to pick up the unified crown. I hoped he could claw his way back with some spectacular play even after going 2 - 0 down.

Topolav could win the next three games (I wouldn't rule it out as a complete impossibility) for an absolutely amazing finish and his win will always be tarnished as having been played at a losing score before the dirty tricks.

Should Topalov give the point back now, or agree to replaying Game 5 right away then his reputation could regain much lost ground. If he gives it back when he doesn't need it (i.e. after 3 wins), or worse still claims the victory purely because of it, then shame on him.

And if the match stays as it is and Topalov wins with 3 wins (2 genuine) to 2, poor Kramnik will be out in the cold, having failed to win either of his defences since 2000, even if most people recognise that he didn't properly lose this one. It will be very hard to continue to pay credence to the 'classical world title'.

Topalov will probably win this match. Let's hope he gives back the ill-gained point first though. And soon, before the gesture is meaningless.

You can't expect to win the unified WC title playing moves like 19. ... e5xf4.

I still support Kramnik on ethical grounds, but in all other respects, Topa will be the better champ.

Topalov should now draw every single of the remaining 3 games [infamous kramnik style get a point ahead and cower down] and p!ss on vladimere's toilet seat.

Hi,

Fermat, you again? The guy who claimed Topalov used Rybka in San Luis even before that computer was launched??? "Many grandmasters realized he played 100% according to Rybka?"

An advice ... instead of spending too many hours looking for computer evaluations or conspiracy theories, you could learn some chess or do your homework in school.

------------

I AM TIRED OF THE PARTIALITY OF CHESSBASE ...
The promotion to Fritz 9, the pro-Kramnik, thanks god we still have Mark in TWIC as source of news.

On forums, I guess this is the best place. For people like Fermat, Kramnik's or Topalov's forums in Chessgames are more suitable places ... at least he could find there people who agree with him...

"It just occurred to me that Topalov actually needs +3 (not +2 as many have said) to guarantee that his forfeit win had nothing to do with his match victory. It is conceivable that Kramnik could have actually won game 5, especially since he had White."

Even if Topalov somehow gets to +3, some people will say that the distraction of pottygate got to Kramnik's head, and still tainted the match. If Topalov wins the match by two, I will accept Topalov as the better player. I will never, of course, condone his off-the-board behavior.

Karpov says he would've walked out - sure, the one who gleefully accepted the FIDE crown without a single move? LIAR.

Korchnoi, player of many prearranged games in his career failing to ever win the crown, is now an authority on sportsmanship?

LMAO @ THE RUSSIAN WHINERS

Topalov still has to win one more game to prove that he can win a match without Dainalov's help.

Fermat,
the only way to do it is to attach a Rybka in a plastic house to a sensitive part of Topalov's body. Then he has somehow to type in Kramnik's moves after each move is made, right in front of the cameras, and decode the morse signals that the machine is giving.
Very elaborate.

It's true, blackjack card players used to do this kind of stuff. One of them had smoke coming out from under her skirt when the machine overheated.

"Topolav could win the next three games (I wouldn't rule it out as a complete impossibility) for an absolutely amazing finish...."

The match ends when a player reaches 6.5 points. If Topalov scores 2.0 or 1.5 in the next two games, then the 12th game will be cancelled.

IMHO it's too late for topalov to replay the 5th game. his reputation is ternish forever as someone ready to make everything to one goal. He must have admit to replay the 5th soon before or just after the 6th.

As we can see, he had everything at hand to equalize then making something better.

So, it's terminated, kramnik's will is over.

No more gifts for the painter but for chess itself! Topalov steamroller on the move! Never doubted it (see my post when he was 0-2 down). He is just stronger and has the right attitude (to work) whereas drawnik's arrogance (in interviews) and distraction technique (constant draw offers when in the lead + sidestepping surveillance measures) dont get him anywhere. May the good prevail !

hey people do not believe all "information" ChessBase site was providing to you -- thats not the whole truth

They are on the Kramnik' side because he'll play Fritz
Advertisement you know...

if topalov wants to play it naughty he should now go out for draws and do it in some in-your-face-kramnik-style ; ) to be honest, can't blame him if he do so...
fact is - all games till now show that kramnik can't win the match, topalov can lose it.

Personally I will only accept Topalov as World Champion if he wins the match and one of three things happen:
A. Kramnik acknowledges him as champion
B. He replays game 5.
C. He wins with a score of at least +3.

Even then I'll still think he's kind of a jerk unless maybe he fires Danailov (which seems doubtful). Anybody else with me?

Does anyone know if it's even possible for Topalov to either cede a point or agree to a replay of game 5, given that he has signed the scoresheet? This would be interesting to know, and I honestly don't.

lazyninja

who cares if you didnt count Topa as a champ when he win this match...

I wouldn't rule out Kramnik's chances entirely, but its going to take a big novelty tomorrow to do it. Its time to press the alarm bell and go aggressive as he did against Leko in Brissago where the last two games he played were about as impressive as he's played since winning against Kasparov. But I agree generally things are looking very bleak for him. That said the novelty Topalov played today was fantastic, probably a one shot deal in that it will probably be easily defused but over the board it must have been horrible to meet.

For once I disagree with Clubfoot. Giannis and his like are depressing but internet tosspots are ten a penny, and not half as depressing as the reality.

Clearly this is over; it's not so much Kramnik's will as his energy that has gone. If it was the will he could maybe gather himself and get it back. Energy once spent you just can't.

Lazy Ninja; the only way one could conceivably regard Topalov as a true champion is for him to win a rematch afresh starting from 1-3. But of course that won't happen.

I do wonder whether this will be the end for Kramnik, not just of the match but effectively of his career. He must be completely sick of the game or at any rate its surroundings, and if he does sue - look at Milov. Litigation is agonising and draining even if you win; all the more so if you have the moral right on your side. It must surely destroy a player's love for the game, and without that - well, call me a romantic, but I'm not sure you can play to your full potential. And with his illness as well I don't know that it would be a great surprise if he just walked away.

Babson said "Fermat, you are a goose.Kindly go away." That's not fair. I've met some quite personable and sensible geese. Why I've come close to electing some of them honorary ducks .... LOL

The reason the Appeals commision resigned was to appease Kramnik to continue playing, not because they did anything illegal... that was one of Kramniks stipulations in order to continue with the match, have the Appeals commision replaced... And Kramnik CHOSE to not play game 5, nobody forced him to... and the playing conditions everyone keeps harping about being changed is ridiculous, he still had access to a toilet... A toilet isn't a change in conditions, they didn't change time controls or something else that affects chess... Chess GM's supporting Kramnik just prove how, great chessplayers aren't good at real life, they try to live by compartmenalized standard idealistic conditions, not reality

What a onesided game, outclassing Kramnik. Topalov has really lifted his game now. Utmost world class, as per definition of a world championship :)

thenewone

Good point. Of course nobody really cares what I think. I was just curious how many fans would accept Kramnik's claims if FIDE declares he loses the match but he still said he was World Champion. It seems to me that since the split of '93 the Classical Title derived its sole authority from popular support, so perhaps it's relevant what the majority of fans think. I'm not going to argue with people, just curious to hear what people think.

Can someone please explain to Fermat that treatment is available for paranoid schizophrenia.

No matter if Topalov wins all the remaining games of this match and every single game till the end of his days: I will NEVER consider him the World Champion!

I have to agree with those who find Kramnik's play disappointingly dull. Past masters of his tradition, such as Karpov in his heyday or even Petrosian, would operate like dangerous boa constrictors, not merely curl up in a defensive crouch waiting for the opponent to blunder.

LazyNinja: I don't know about "conditions". Topa clearly shows (not surprisingly, after all) that he's got what it takes to be a champ chess-wise.

While the "upset" at the beginning was surprising, it revealed that under pressure he can resort to dubious and shameful tactics.

Many sports have controversial champions - Michael Schumacher comes to mind (currently trying to grab his eighth(!) title before retiring). While celebrated as a genius driver and tactician, his crashes with close rivals in the last races of the season were infamous.

There's clearly a lot of pressure (and money) at the top and many will go to the edge - and beyond!

Topalov will calmly chill out tonight:)
http://www.veselintopalov.net/article/after-game-9

Go Topaaaaaaa:)

"Does anyone know if it's even possible for Topalov to either cede a point or agree to a replay of game 5, given that he has signed the scoresheet?"

Yes, of course it is possible. During the negotiations after the forfeited game, it was proposed that he would do precisely that. There were other proposals, such as returning the score to 3-1, but lengthening the match to either 14 or 16 games. All were rejected.

If none of those proposals were accepted THEN, they're certainly not going to happen NOW. As I've said before, the best possible outcome is either a Kramnik win or a Topalov win by at least +2. I think Kramnik will sue in any scenario where he loses. But ultimately, he needs to fight for the championship within the FIDE structure, because he has no other option at his disposal (i.e., no PCA, Braingames, Einstein, or Dannemann).

Giannis is a Bulgarian troll. He knows what Lada is. And believes BMW is the best :)

Now that Topalov has pulled ahead, it may begin to dawn on him that he no longer needs that distasteful forfeit win from Game 5. It would be a risky strategy, but he could tell Kirsan, that upon further reflection, he would prefer to give the point back. This would leave the match tied again, but would allow for him to begin to rebuild his reputation, and his popularity outside of Bulgaria (if that is of any importance to him). Probably, most chess fans would not accept such a belated "Grand gesture" of magnaminity, but there are many who would. Besides, there is already the chance that Kramnik or his team would begin to react badly, out of frusteration for their match position. The player who wins the public relations battle is the one who makes the next to last blunder at the Press Conferences. [Apologies to Tartakower...although this is what chess has become ;-( ]

Thank you Marc.

I agree the two outcomes you cite are the best, yet I can't bring myself to really root for either. Kramnik will not be the champ the chess sport direly needs; Topalov is permanently tainted by the pysops tactics (the Fritz 9 lunacy burned all bridges AFAIC). Dismal prospects indeed.

Kramnik need not worry... burger king is always hiring.

Many people believe that somehow Topalov would be a more dignified winner of the match (is this a foregone conclusion?) if he gave back the point from game 5. If I were Topalov, I would take a different approach: win another couple of games in crushing style!

As it stands now, Topalov won 2 games over the board, while Kramnik won 2 in the toilet, and lost one in front of it in a childish fit.

No Vlad Kosulin, I'm not Bulgarian, I'm Greek. But in this match yes, we Greeks are all Bulgarians! :-)

hahaha kramnik to burger king:)
Gooo topaaa:)

Kasparov could break from FIDE because he was "Mr Chess" himself. For Kramnik to do that if he loses this match would be like a clown pretending to be an emperor.

To those who hate Topalov and are blind to the game of chess -- your opinion simply doesn't matter. People like the winner at the end and all this nonsense, particularly from Chessbase.com, will wash down Kramnik's toilet in no time.

D.

Topalov is a cheater and we will "take care of him."

Topalov cheats. You are the type of persons who yell schizophrenia and paranoia and UFOs if someone suggests there is a doping problem in cycling. Look at the people to openly accuse Topalov of cheating. They are all master level players or stronger. I'd take Morozevich's word over yours anyday.

If they can do the Danailov tricks, then cheating is just another spawn of such low morality.

If you disagree I must seriously question how gullible you are?

The King is Topalov and we are millions that are with him! Kramnik will not even enjoy Kremlin support after this match.
Go Topalov!

Guido: Topalov is a cheater and we will "take care of him."
-------------------------------------

Brilliant!! Danailov has a position for toilet cleaning services. You can apply, but there is an IQ test first.

D.

I guess I'm just saner than you and can see how much wrong there is in this world and that this kind of unfair behavior happens everyday. Open your eyes. There is undeniable proof he cheats. Look at Barsky's analysis for an example.

I agree LazyNinja except that the combination of your points A and B will do the trick for me. And even after that Topalov is Vaseline Toiletlov to me and I will always be celebrating his loss - against anybody. To me is a cheater, non-gentleman and human garbage.

Cheers!

Fermat, I understand your sorrow, but please do not project it outwards. The game of chess is great. Long live chess!

D.

Where can I find commentary for game 9?

I'm not generally one for conspiracies, but with so much on the line, as in this match, it seems that full-body X-rays are appropriate to guarantee against physical implants, either in one's clothing or within one's body.

How difficult would it be, really, to implant a small, vibrating device in one's shoe? A device that responds only to specific and unusual frequencies, carefully encrypted to appear indistinguishable from background cellphone noise, for example, and interprets pre-arranged signals as algebraic coordinates?

Think of how creative terrorists have become in recent years. Is it really so hard to believe that the most brilliant chess minds on the planet should be any less creative?

Well, I'm willing to contemplate the possibility that either side cheats, as long as there is a speck of evidence that might hold up in court. "Analysis" this and "analysis" that just doesn't cut it.

2 wins a piece! exciting match, can't wait to see who is superior in the end.

Fermat,
Whether you are right or not does not change the fact that you are slightly insane.

Is Kramnik crying in the toilet? poor him....
Oooh, no, he is not crying, but he is still there. Veselin played sooo fast there was no time for the toilet!

I'm not generally one for conspiracies, but with so much on the line, as in this match, it seems that full-body X-rays are appropriate to guarantee against physical implants, either in one's clothing or within one's body.

How difficult would it be, really, to implant a small, vibrating device in one's shoe? A device that responds only to specific and unusual frequencies, carefully encrypted to appear indistinguishable from background cellphone noise, for example, and interprets pre-arranged signals as algebraic coordinates?

Think of how creative terrorists have become in recent years. Is it really so hard to believe that the most brilliant chess minds on the planet should be any less creative?
Posted by: Rybka 1 - Kramnik 0 at October 7, 2006 12:13"

Yes. First Topalov can't do anything with white against Kramnik. Then follows Rybka 95% for two consecutive games, only differing from the first move suggestions and computer's time usage / move pattern when he is already totally winning.

He finds these Rybka's first choices in 1-2 minutes.

If you don't think he cheats, then you don't know chess. Morozevich (FIDE elo 2750) says he cheats, do you think you know better?

If you said to any objective, non-chess organizer, someone whom is familiar with competitive events, and asked them to review the fairness of the match conditions prior to game 1, it would be clear to them that the match construction itself is flawed:

1) Played in Russia - not a neutral site
2) FIDE execs (VP's) on original Appeals Committee - Obvious potential bias

Those two come to mind. I'm sure there are others...

Why Kramnik agreed to these conditions is beyond me. Unfotunately, he did, and here we sit, with Topalov on the brink. You cannot 'blame' anyone for this, Kramnik fan or not. But, I still think G5 issues are not resolved, so Topalov may need to win 2 of the next 3 games to remove any doubt. Can he do it? Before game 9, I would have said (I did say, matter of fact), you're out of your mind. Now, I'm not so sure. Tomorrow is the biggest game in Kramnik's life, I feel. He needs to sit down, with grim determination, and defeat Topalov with the White pieces.

It is safe to say that chess players worldwide will embrace Topalov if he wins outright (+2, G5 withstanding), and soon forget about 'Toiletgate', if for no other reason than to finally bury Kasparov, and for the specific reason to rid themselves of that 'Boxing' and 'Pro Wrestling' moniker 'UNIFIED CHAMPION'.

Guh.

This match was already effectively ruined by Danailov. In case of Toiletlov winning his manager did ensure that his win will be seen as controversial to say the least and non-credible de facto. Only hope for the match to succeed is Kramnik to win it, but unfortunately that is hard to see happening after all that has taken place due to the actions by the opposing team of cheaters. Too bad Toiletlovlovers! - but Kramnik remains the Classical World Champion!

Fermat,
So...where is all this famous Barsky analysis that "proves" that Topalov is cheating (as opposed to just playing well enough to match computer moves as all top GMs do)? You keep mentioning it as if it is fact and as if we all have seen it. Do us and your argument a favor and provide it for us.

Thanks,

Mr x says - but Kramnik remains the Classical World Champion!

a term that will have no more meaning or financial support than "short order cook" if Kramnik loses to Topalov.

You just wait and see..The cheating will be busted eventually. Now already the bad sportmanship of the Bulgarian team is evident for all to see.

And in case not: Enjoy! If chess world wants crooks and cheats for them to look up to then that is exactly what chess world deserves! You can have it!

Fermat, where is a link with the supposedly cheating accusations of Morozevich?

Take it easy... Your man might strike back... Only with the help of God of course :-)

If the world would accept Karpov taking the title without a moved played, they will certainly accept Topalov winning.

I don’t see why most people are blaming Topalov for this “Toiletgate” mess -- it was Kramnik who started it.

It has been argued that that Kramnik has the right to go to the restroom/bathroom as many times as he wants. Really?

During a chess match one’s opponent may have the right to scratch his nose 100x a game, or maybe comb hair his 50x, or get up every minute in a game and make a 100 fresh cups of coffee -- but these distracting behaviors could certainly be construed as unsportsmanlike behavior.

If Kramnik had a legitimate reason for his bathroom behavior (30+ visits) then he should bring it to the attention of FIDE. If not, then this behavior could certainly be viewed as unsportsmanlike. Was it Kranmik’s intention to play head games with Topalov with these bathroom visits?

Topalov was certainly within his right to bring this behavior to the attention of FIDE. The fact that his manager and FIDE may not have handled the situation in the best manner is not Topalov’s fault.

In response to my post yesterday about Topalov being morally bankrupt, rdh responded:

“Theorist: Obviously. I assumed it went without saying that Topalov was completely dead to any ethical notions.”

Obvious, perhaps. But the practical point is that the efforts and disapprobation of the chess community need to be directed towards the most critical spot. That spot is Topalov himself.

Further, an extra aspect needs to be brought out: the way Topalov has reinforced the off-the-board antics by his tactics in the match itself. I mean the way he’s blitzing his moves out. This might facetiously be called his “anti-toilet” strategy; but it’s clearly designed to make Kramnik as uncomfortable and self-conscious as possible, leaving him no time whatsoever to go to his rest area.

Now, perhaps we should be applauding Topalov’s “killer instinct”; this is, presumably, what makes a champion in any sport: spotting an opponent’s weakness and exploiting it ruthlessly (and if it weren’t such an effective strategy, it wouldn’t be an issue). But given the “loosening moves” from Danailov that have clearly precipitated a change in mental outlook from Kramnik, I find it all distasteful.

To call the combined actions of Danailov and Topalov “premeditated”, as if it were a coordinated off-the-board and on-the-board plan of attack would be too much: not because it would be too cynical, but because it would be to give too much credit to these heavy-footed clowns. Rather I feel Topalov is simply being opportunistic –- as a champion must be, I suppose.

But this just reinforces my earlier argument: by pocketing the extra point and following this up with the clear exploitation of the mental disequilibrium caused by the outrageous allegations of cheating –- allegations which are, in every way, morally reprehensible -- Topalov has simply confirmed that he will stop at nothing to retain his “crown”. He has no scruples and deserves censure even beyond that hurled at Danailov: for Topalov alone has the ability “make it right”. He is, as I say, the critical spot in this mess, and it is to him that we should direct our attention.

Topalov is morally bankrupt. FIDE will have its proper champion.

Krapnik was the one to cheat the first games as KGB had free access to his room and records are missing. How else will you explain such a DROP in his gameplay???!!!

Well, what ca I say:)
Super Tooopalov:)
http://www.veselintopalov.net/article/super-topalov

Well spoken Theorist! Very well indeed!

Why does kramnik's level of play suffer if he cannot go to the unsupervised potty 47 times per game?

Topalov is well served to keep kramnik at the board. A strategy that is paying dividends.

It's time for Kramnik to pull a dirty trick of his own on Topalov. Tit for tat. Threaten the whole match and the sucess of the chess world if he doesn't get what he want's. Threaten to walk out before the match is finished. That would get the psychology back.

Well, what ca I say:)
Super Tooopalov:)
http://www.veselintopalov.net/article/super-topalov

One good thing came out of Kramnik's court today -- all pretense for
propriety has been dropped. The true attitudes have surfaced like you
know what... Chessbase.com is permanently stuck in the restroom.

Thank God there is still something objective left -- like the game of
Chess itself. It's all on the board. Long live Chess!

D.

sorry for posting twice :(

LOL!

Yes, look at what Topalov says about himself:

"Super Topalov · Sep 14, 02:39 AM

Lately it is a fashion to organize matches “the man against the machine” style. There are also “machine vs machine” matches. But certanly there is a new combination of a man and machine, the world champion GM Veselin Topalov, that is difficult to clasify in any of these categories.
This year Veselin is the only player to have participated in so many and so prestigious events. He played in the three top tournaments which will be a part of next years Grand Slam (Corus, Morelia/Linares, and the MTel Masters), one “match of the champions” agains Dieter Nisipeanu, the Amber Rapid/Blindfold, and Leon. Any modern computer processor that runs in so many games at such a high level would develop enourmous temperatures and will need supercoolers to perform reasonably. Not only GM Topalov participated, he won two of the events and finished second two times.
At the same time Veselin had to “process” numerous interviews, media press conferences, public chess games, promotional events. He never said no to an interview, he never rejected giving an autograph. He was constantly there with the people.
A human outside of the chess board and a machine during the games, the world has its chess super hero and he’s name is Veselin Topalov."

Fermat,
Either your English sucks or your logic does (I guess those aren't mutually exclusive ideas). This is an interesting and completely unrelated new item. Still waiting for the analysis of Barsky...

That is "news item." Guess we already know that MY English sucks...sheesh

is it topalov saying that?
hm...
well, anyhow, he is the best at the moment and he proved it today

"It's time for Kramnik to pull a dirty trick of his own on Topalov. Tit for tat. Threaten the whole match and the sucess of the chess world if he doesn't get what he want's. Threaten to walk out before the match is finished. That would get the psychology back."

In a sense, hasn't he already tried this once? Not that it was dirty, but he definitely threatened to end the match by not showing up for game 5. It didn't exactly work out well for him the first time.

Why was the match against Liviu Dieter called the match of the champions? Isn't it now?

World Champion vs European Champion.

Seems to me that the Russian team made the first cheating allusions, when they wanted that glass shield to be installed - something which was not in the original contract. Or am I missing something?

It might be of interest to the English-speaking users of this forum that well-renowned chess organizer Hans-Walter Schmitt (who is doing the Mainz Chess Classics, thus being kind of a German equivalent to Silvio Danailov with his M-tel tourney in Sofia) gave a quite outspoken interview yesterday which is on the German website of chessbase:

http://chessbase.de/nachrichten.asp?newsid=5875

Schmitt is in effect doing three pretty harsh things here. He

1) suggests that "the organizers of Wijk aan Zee, Morelia/Linares, Monaco, Dortmund, Mainz and Corsica" threaten to ban Topalov from their tournaments if he doesn't stop his unfair behavior off the board
2) suggests that "some of Topalov's top ten colleagues" reject invitations to the Sofia tournament
3) suggests that "a team of experts could investigate how it is possible that an experienced player no younger that 30 suddenly doesn't perform at his 2730-2740 Elo level any more but constantly plays 2800+ with remarkable streaks of victories". He goes on to point to Topalov's mediocre performances in the speed chess section of Monaco and his failure to play Anand in this discipline.

no matter what topalov do he is still a cheater and a toy in danailov hand

Fermat said:
"I'm not generally one for conspiracies, but with so much on the line, as in this match, it seems that full-body X-rays are appropriate to guarantee against physical implants, either in one's clothing or within one's body."

I agree. There should be full-body x-rays and the clothing (shoes and everything else) should be examined before every game. The players would disappear into their restrooms with the cameras off, the inspection would take place, and the players would re-emerge. Before this, the bathrooms would have been inspected with similar thoroughness.

Does Topalov have a receiver in his shoe? I can't be sure he doesn't. There may be jamming, but can it block digital signals? Digital signals have high bandwidth and are hard to jam. I invite others who know what I am talking about to comment.

Does Kramnik cheat in the bathroom? My theory has been that he brings a custom built digital receiver (many times smaller than a chess computer) in with him. Again, the jamming doesn't stop the digital information, and a move is displayed to him on a small LCD screen. The receiver is brought in in a secret pocket in his jacket or other clothing. It's designed to diffuse radiation (think of the stealth bomber and stealth fighter, which diffuse radar signals rather than bouncing them back), so that the primitive "airport-style" metal detector doesn't pick it up.

I would expect professional GMs to say this is all nonsense. It's their profession that I am talking about. I hope I'm wrong but I think I'm right. This is not a question of technology more than chess, so I hope that other tech geeks will give their comments and ideas.

Now a legendary tournament organiser Hans-Walter Schmitt threatens to ban Topalov from future tournies because he computer cheats. Those of us who know the truth, let's discuss what their method of cheating could be like. This is the only relevant question left here.

Those who think there isn't doping problem in cycling, wouldn't you just let the informed of us do the talking.

Reading Kasparov's article in WSJ it looks like Garry is suspicious too!

Rybka agrees!

So what is their method of cheating?

Those who accuse Topalov of cheating should remember his 1996 performances. I doubt any major player would have accepted any PC assistance then.

Topalov is simply an explosive player that found his stride in 2005.

It is important to note that most Russian chess observers are quite fair and provide great analysis. The Russians have too great of traditions in the sport and love for the game to be permanently stuck at the restroom level.

I take Chesspro.ru any time ahead of this low class rag Chessbase.com. They did a disservice to their product with that attitude. The more they whine about the Appeals committee, the more pathetic they get. I hope they have a way out of their contract with Kramnik.

D.

Larry;

"was it Kramnik's intention to play headgames with Topalov with these visits"

Seems a bit unlikely. He was after all in his private restroom with no way for Topalov to know whether he went into the toilet or not.

Until the Bulgarians persuaded Azmai and Macro to give then the videotape of Kramnik's restroom, of course.

The players of course take off their shoes for the metal inspection, because most shoes have metal lasts that would set off the detector. This way either or both of them can get a receiver into the hall.

Now suppose Kramnik has to take off his shoe to get the data (it's a digital receiver with LCD screen display) but Topalov doesn't (he also has a receiver, but a move is communicated to him via a code with vibrations, because his shoe has a better battery in it.)

Shoe-phones? Get Smart!

Guess Topalov's computer program must be a lot stronger than Kramnik's computer program.

fermet ur simply right ,look at topalov in the rabid tournments he is simply one of the worst yet somehow in many of his classic games he plays very fast and get a wining positions howwww???

Simple metal detectors should be a minimum requirement as there is no radio transmission or reception without SOME metallic content. This would cover earpieces or anything in pockets or shoes. They only need to do this once they entered the playing area.

They talk about inspection of the playing areas, restroom and toilet in advance of play. How do they inspect? Visually or with metal detectors and RF scanners?

Otherwise, speculation of 95% matching of Rybka by Topalov will go on and on. How else to explain Topalov's rise/Kramnik's decline in play. Just the usual "slow start" by Topalov? Please.

veselintopalov.net is obviously NOT an official site...

Topalov plays in rapids for fun and without specific preparation. Simle answer.
Yet in classical nobody can beat him, he has a 2 million dollar chip in the head:)

I'm not too fond of chessbase.com either. Unfortunately though, I do not speak Russian. Is there some Russian chess site that also writes in English?

I think the players should leave their shoes outside the playing area and be given very nice slippers. There's nothing inappropriate about that! It should be implemented immediately before tomorrow's game.

It might stop some shenanigans, can't be sure but worth a try.

even korchnoi think soo http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3408

The chip-in-head idea is baloney. Think mundane, like receiver in shoe.

They should play naked!
COme on guys, you become ridiculous... after video records are 24 hours (not like the first two games) cheating is impossible.

@drummer

metal detectors.
it was pointed out a few times in interviews.

Here is the Barsky article in case anyone is interested

http://prosports.ru/index.ipj?clsid=3795239278-6953-16397-191&method=getArticle&id=73936&rubric_id=39361

My Russian isn't that great, but I understand the star exhibit is the game Topalov-Moro from San Luis, where Topalov after a lot of very accurate play overlooked a perpetual check trick from Moro which computers also overlook, and instead moved his rook to the square which computers tend to. As we know, computers do sometimes overlook perpetual check tricks which a strong player would see (or not see in the case of Kramnik-Deep Fritz) for reasons to do with their event horizon. I don't find this on its own terribly compelling: my personal opinion is that neither one is cheating at all, except of course for Topalov's flagrantly unethical behaviour.

David Quinn: I do wonder why I bothered. If you think someone who misses a tablebase win is a computer cheat, then in truth there's just no point in debate.

I notice incidentally Article 12.1 of the Laws of Chess, which provides that a player shall not do anything which might bring the game into disrepute. I'm sure we all look forward to hearing the sanction Gijssen chooses to impose on Topalov under this article.

All this cheating methods talk is nonsense, both Kramnik and Topalov are strong enough to play this on their own, and they won't risk their careers by cheating to win a title that is pretty much devaluated anyway.

marca

(sigh). 24 hour videos - bollocks. The toilets are still unmonitored. If Kramnik was cheating in game one and two, he could cheat now.

Skeptic, it's not about risking their careers, it's about money. While both player will get $500k regardless of this events result, Topalov has a future match with Radjabov that depends on him retaining the World Championship. As earlier post said, there's about $2MM at stake for him and his pal, Silvio.

Aren't they monitored???? This is ridiculous!!!! The match will be finished by Kremlin moves :( if they are not monitored I expect 3 wins from Kramnik.
The long hand of Kremlin is after the whole chess.

If Kramnik was cheating, he did it with the Sargon program in the first half of the match. If Topalov's cheating, he started after Danailov threw up a smokescreen midway through. Both would be next to impossible to prove, but one thing is clear: if Topalov was willing to stand there grinning as he signed the scoresheets to an ill-got point while 2-0 down, he's capable of anything because he'll take it any way he can get it. And one way or the other, Kramnik's chess career may be over beyond simul appearances and curio interviews.

i wonder, how important is it to the Kremlin and Putin for a Russian to regain the title of FIDE world champion? didn't earlier posters say that the position of chessplayers in Russia has gone way down in recent years?

seems like there are a lot of other things going on there: like bad things happening to journalists who disagree with the government:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Russia-Journalist-Killed.html?hp&ex=1160280000&en=f6f5fb652a615463&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Clubfoot: What's Sargon? One of those 1980's affairs for club players?

I fear you may be right about Kramnik though.

Look at this. This is the face of a person who knows he is cheating and feels at unease, nervous about it.

http://www.worldchess2006.com/img/r7_10.jpg

Here's a trivia question, to which I don't know the answer:

In world championship history, what is the maximum number of consecutive games that have begun with 1.d4? At this point, we've had eight in a row. There's a good chance we'll see nine, as I don't see Kramnik starting with 1.e4 tomorrow, although 1.Nf3 is a possibility.

Eh, that'll teach me to google before posting. I must be psychic. Sorry, Clubfoot, kinda stepped on your joke there.

Sad, but this is just another match in a long history of world championship matches with no end of non-chess distractions. Fischer playing in a small back room with Spassky, Kasparov & Karpov having their match ended due to length, and now pottygate. Is this really that shocking or different than the 'good old days'?

At least they are playing some chess.

Eh, that'll teach me to google before posting. I must be psychic. Sorry, Clubfoot, kinda stepped on your joke there.

coreolarus,

my opinion:
1) Perhaps one or two will do this but then again he remains a great crowdpleaser... no easy draws, always on the attack ... I don't think that he is going to be that easy to ignore.
2) I think this is rather childish... I think this is just jerk reaction form them because Topalov filled the void left by Kasparovs retirement. I think about everybody in the top 10 at the moment had hopes to be the new number one.
3) It isn't that remarkable: as far as I can tell the keys to Topalovs success have been very good opening preparation (he is one of the few players who always has at least one GM second with him) and succesfully playing dynamic position that require exact calculation rather than a positional aproach. He isn't going to give his opening prep away in blitz games and those games don't allow exact calculation. And as for rapid chess against Anand, I don't think that anyone can take Anand on at rapid chess since Kasparov retired.

In general I think Topalov either overcame some psychological barrier that kept him down or he readjusted his game. My impression is that Danialov has something to do with this (when did he actually become Topalovs manager?) and that this is the reason that Topalov sticks with his manager.

TOpalov against Kremlin..... World championship 2006

Eight in a row in Alekhine-Euwe 1935 19-26 or so. The first 21 games in 1937 were QP openings, I believe, although I don't know if they all started 1 d4. And my memory tells me that Alekhine-Capa featured 37 straight QGDs, although I don't suppose it actually did.

Tom, as far as I know, Danailov has been Topalov's guardian, educational teacher, and chess coach/manager since he was 5 years old.

After all I've read the past week, here and otherwise, my brain yearns for the "law of succinctness". Regarding cheating and bathrooms...

If Topalov (and or Kramnik) is cheating...explain game 2. There are other examples in the match but no way this particular game plays out the way it did with computer involvement. Were they intentionally bludering? Possible but increasinly less plausible...this piles on alot of assumptions to our calculations. Bottom line, we have no evidence of cheating. None! The engine matching arguments lack the scietific basis to be considered anything but speculation (of the rampant kind).

Off the board shenanigans...what a sideshow we've had! To give myself some perspective, I reread parts of "Bobby Fischer goes to War" last night. The off the board antics in Iceland dwarf this match. Would a Spassky victory have been invalidated by Fischers forfeit? Only in Bobbys mind and thats still a maybe. Fischer didn't show for a game, Kramnik didn't show...forefeit is the only outcome within the match framework (ie 1) match ends or 2) match continues with forfeit or 3) Topalov agrees to replay the game are the only possibilities and the last was "legally" ruled out). I side with Kramnik on the moral issues but in the end you have to come to the board or suffer the forfeit. Bottom line....the behavior of the contestants (particularly Topalov) should be harshly criticized but they hardly invalidate the match results.

What we do know for sure is Topalov has played some of the most inspired chess in recent WC history. He has also won the theoretical battle in the openings. We also know Kramnik can still win and can play decisive games when he needs to (ask Leko). Many people predicted the exact course of these OTB events...Kramnik starts strong, Topalov is hyper aggressive and it costs him points, Kramnik starts to wear down, Topalov stages a late comeback. Its not over yet and I hope what happens OTB in the next three games is what we focus on and what we ultimately remember best.

I fail to see in which manner is Topalov responsible for Kramnik not showing up for the 5th game. Sounds to me a foolish decision, overly sensitive reaction, not too smart. He may have been ahead still if he had played it. Could have waited for the break day and then make his claim with time and precision, still making the Topalov team appear foolish in their attempt at psychological warfare. It turns up that he is the weaker player both in chess and in personality, so it is just that he would lose in both fronts.

Peace

This will be a bit lengthy, so I apologize in advance

First, while I do play a lawyer in real life, my experience is pretty much limited to the US. I have some small understanding of international contract law, and none whatsoever of Kalmykia. However, there are a couple of general points.

1. It is almost never right to simply walk away in the face of a breach. Later analysis may determine it was a minor as opposed to a major breach, in which case stopping performance will get you in big trouble. There is a concept called mitigation of damages which requires you to reasonably limit the damages the other party will suffer even if he breached. In this case, if I was giving legal advice to Kram, I certainly would have told him to play game five.

2. A lot of ‘computer cheating’ accusations are being tossed around quite lightly. I spent the last few hours looking over game 9 pretty carefully with F9 on an Athlon XP 2800 [I know, time to upgrade]. In any case, I took everything to at least 13 ply which I find is usually fairly reliable.

Now if someone wanted to cheat, of course the way to do it would be not to use computer analysis on every move, but rather at the critical junctures. What is interesting is that Topa made some seriously inferior moves at critical points, e.g.,

26 h4, 28. Nc3 29. Qg2 and 30. Rc1 are distinctly inferior, by at least.25, to Fritzies suggestions. Even more remarkable is 35. Rf3. This move just never shows up in Fritz’ list no matter how long I let it run. Even more significantly, it allows 35. … c5 which if it doesn’t save the game, certainly makes it much more difficult then the terrible Nf8. Long analysis is wrong analysis, but…

35...Nd5 36.Rdf1; 35...c5 36.d5 ( 36.Rdf1 Qc6 37.Kh2 Rd7 38.dxc5 Nd5 39.Bh3 g5 40.Bg2 Red8 41.c4 Ne7 42.Qa5 ( 42.Rxf7 Rd2 43.R7f2 Rxa2 44.Bxc6 Rxf2+ 45.Bxf2 Nxc6 46.Ra1 a5–+) 42...gxh4 43.Rxf7 Rd2 44.Bf2 Qe8 45.Be1 Re2 46.Kg1 Rd1 47.R7f2 Nd4 48.Rf4² ( 48.Rf8+ Qxf8 49.Rxf8+ Kxf8–+) ) 36...Nf8 37.d6 Qb7 38.Rdf1 Rxe5 39.Qxf7+ Qxf7 40.Rxf7 Nd5 41.Bh3 Ne3 42.Rxf8+ Rxf8 43.Re1 Ng4 44.Rxe5 Nxe5 45.Be6+ Kh7 46.Bxc5²

The point being there are significant tactical tricks to prevent the Rxf7 idea.

So, while find team Topalov’s tactics distinctly distasteful and annoying, I am not so sure they are that much worse than those pulled in other WC matches held outside of the Soviet hegemony. Kramnik certainly erred by not playing game 5, and certainly should be saluted for playing on after this error. Finally, I just don’t see any way in which either player is cheating in any fashion.

Did Topa ‘break’ Kramnik psychologically? Perhaps, but he certainly should have been mentally prepared for this type of assault, especially playing the FIDE champion in FIDE’s backyard.

Marc,
Don't have the games available, but I think from memory it would be 33 in Alekhine-Capablanca 1927. Capa lost first game to Alekhine's French and immediately and permanently switched to 1.d4. I think Alekhine played 1.d4 in every game. As match was 34 games long, this makes it 33. Quite an impressive number!
I think Alekhine lost with the Queen's Indian Defence in games 3 and 7, then switched until end of match to QGD, as Capa was already playing. So may also have been 27 QGD's in a row as well!
The first Karpov-Kasparov match in 1984/5 must also have featured a fair run, but it may have been only(!) 20 or so.

it doesnt matter who we all consider the champ. what matters is who wins the match. even if we dont like the winner.

Kramnik agreed to continue playing with game 5 under protest. that means he will accept the result of games 6-12 despite everything going on off the board.

so if Kramnik isnt making excuses for the result of games 6-12, why are his fans making excuses that he's psychologically damaged? he agreed to continue under these conditions so its all on him now.

to avoid all controversy Topalov should win by +2. someone said he had to win by +3 because they thought Kramnik would win game 5 since he had white. thats just your opinion, others may think Topalov would have won like he won game 8 with black.

+2 Topalov is champ, +1 Vlad is champ, +1 Topalov is the legal mess but may be technically champ. some say Topalov is cheating but cant prove it, some say Kramnik cheats at the bathroom but cant prove it. until someone shows proof neither is officially cheating (which is what matters, not someone thinking he cheated).

The explanation is easy. Topalov doesn't cheat every game. He has just only started cheating in these last two games. The same happened in Mtel, Linares.

There is so little doubt about Topalov's cheating antics that Sergej Dolmatow, the prime student of the best chess trainer in the world (Dvoretskij) noted this openly, as a fact. He didn't accuse or suspect Topalov of cheating, as much as noting it as a fact everyone should be aware of by now, because it is so obvious.

We have some of the best trainers in the world and players in the world saying Topalov cheats (and multiple more in private) and yet you think it's paranoia. You think Ben Johnson was clean too?

Remember, that it was later proven that Carl Lewis was a druggie and a doping cheat.

Gatlin, Marion Jones... Topalov cheats.

fermat, dude, go back to the margins of your books, pls, kbyethx.
i hope we see some push from kramnik the next game, it's about time to show something other than defense.

http://prosports.ru/index.ipj?clsid=3795239278-6953-16397-191&method=getArticle&id=73936&rubric_id=39361

is indeed a very interesting article.

It turns out that in the year 2005, which Topalov dominated, Morozevich didn't include him in his Oscar ballot. However, he included Rybka as #1 and Danailov as #3 - he figured that should pretty much cover Topalov's success :)

I liked watching kramnik play today. It was like watching a porcupine sit still as the hyena digs beneath it to get at its soft belly.

Kramnik can defend well (usually) but he just doesn't excite/inspire at all. His play is boring, mundane and unimaginative.

In fact has he come up with even one novelty or created a winning position on his own that topalov didn't grossly blunder and hand over?

nope.

fermat and russianbear must be running around in circles looking for their meds

So Topalov dopes? B/c all those people you listed were taking performance enhancing drugs.

Where's the proof that he cheats?

A claptrap statistical look at his moves compared to a program? It's going to have to be a little more controlled and scientific than that.

You would have to compare his moves to the top programs. You would have to know how fast he moved and compare that to the software's speed. You would have to find equivalent hardware and settings. Then you would have to take into consideration that the individual probably trains with software and it might have had an impact on the way he/she plays. You would have to understand the complexity of the game at that point, and know how many good candidate moves and continuations from which the player had to choose; you can't really count forced moves, or if the player had only a few good moves to choose from. You would have to look at all the top GMs and determine a mean percentage of moves-to-software. So on and So on...

The simple fact: chess software can be easily manipulated to produce the answers you want in the time that you want. A little exaggerated, but any layperson's simple analysis and conclusion of cheating is not only suspect, but irresonsible.

hey people!

if you dont understand yet i'll tell you - its very very simple:

for some of the russians is very important to have a World Champion title in chess - its a matter of honour for them: look in the history; look at the methods they use to win and keep it.

So do not be so naive to believe their version of "poor little Kramnik" and "big bad Topalov".

respects

I understand the proof. If Kramnik moves like fritz, then he's using fritz. If topalov moves like rybka, then he has a cpu embedded in his skull.

If RussianBear types like a retarded monkey with ADHD - then he is in fact a retarded monkey with ADHD.

Its all perfectly clear now.

About the +3 vs. +2 thing:
I just wanted to clarify that I'm merely saying that a +3 result is the minimum possible finish for Topalov in order to make ABSOLUTELY SURE that the forfeit had nothing to do with the match victory (other than some vague psychological damage to Kramnik). Admittedly, with +2 we can say that Topalov would PROBABLY have won the match even if game 5 had been played, but to be absolutely sure he'd need +3.

and plz stop all this cheating BS

that is all a pure defamation

look from when it comes and you'll understand...

respect

It is actually flattering to know that some people's only purpose in life is to come here and insult me. Keep it up :)

Interestingly, back in July, Dolmatov did in fact accuse Topalov of computer cheating, and Danailov fired back that this was paranoia, the "dirty war", and so on, and that it was all a Russian campaign to rattle Topalov before the match.

I would say that 95% of the people who have been flaming Topalov as subhuman scum for Danailov's petitions and press releases were unaware of this at the time. At any rate I didn't notice any great campaign to declare Dolmatov to be subhuman scum or ostracize him from the world of chess or impose penalties on him. However, as GM Korchnoi notes in his most recent interview on Chessbase, Danailov's press releases were responses pretty much in kind to the charges from Dolmatov and Barsky, except that they took place during the match, not before, and except that Dolmatov's and Barsky's accusations are not directly linked to Team Kramnik. Both of these do in fact make Dolmatov more culpable. (I am writing on the assumption that neither player is a comp cheat and that all these accusations are slanders and/or paranoia.) But you can see why Danailov might have thought he was justified in "fighting fire with fire".

Several people are now making the following argument - "even if GM Kramnik plays badly now, and Topalov wins the match on over-the-board points, it is still all Danailov's fault because he 'crushed Kramnik psychologically' with the whole toilet affair." GM Nataf said that this morning on the ICC for example, and the words 'crushed Kramnik psychologically' are a quote from him. The problem with that is, why did Kramnik hold Topalov off with the black pieces for three straight games immediately after the game 5 forfeit, in the middle of which Danailov sent out his awful "Fritz comparison" press release? Why do the lost games come a week afterward?

For that matter, suppose someone then argues that games 1 and 2 are the fault of Dolmatov and Barsky?

There is a thing in the literature of social psychology called the "fundamental attribution error" which says, basically, that when I (or my friends or people I identify with) do something bad or stupid, it is because I was forced to do it by external influences, whereas when other people (neutrals or my enemies or people I hate) do something bad or stupid, it is because they are bad or stupid. (For more see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error )

I will be tempted from now on to call this the "Elista effect" because all the partisans on both sides reason this way. For Kramnik partisans, when he plays badly, it's because he was rattled by Danailov; when he forfeits game 5, he was forced to do it by Danailov and FIDE. For Topalov partisans, his victories are all his own work and his defeats are the result of Kramnik's using a comp in the toilet and he has no control over Danailov.

Oh, I meant to give this cite to the Dolmatov-Danailov exchange:

http://www.chessbanter.com/rec-games-chess-misc-chess/22808-kramnik-topalov-2.html#post189491

Kramnik's level of play has dropped sharply since 2000. His "defense" in game 9 was childlike.

Kasparov said it best - there is no money for the under 8 #3 player in Siberia, nor for chess, in Russia anymore.

But the moment their golden boy kramnik gets in trouble, svidler, bareev etc. are on the scene and its a gov't priority.

Its very funny to watch the russian chess machine foundering yet again. They had the title so many times they will fight to keep it at any cost.

Ironically Kramnik created the first change of playing conditions demanding the glass. Then he cried with it came back to a change w/toilets.

Interestingly when topalov doesn't give kramnik the time to make 52 unsupervised potty trips per game, kramniks defense falls like a house of cards.

Seems to me that Kramnik wasn't playing very well before 'psychology' came into it anyway. He got the worse of game 1, should have lost game 2, and missed two virtually certain wins in game 3.
The difference seems to be more that Topalov is playing better.

Question to those who are not ready to accept Topalov is a computer cheat:

Do you think you know better than the most creative attacking player since Rashid Nezhmetdinov, Aleksander Morozevich or the star pupil of the most respected chess trainer in the world (Mark Dvoretskij) and now himself the trainer of the Russian national team Sergej Dolmarow?

Do you think you know more about chess, chess computers and calculation than they do?

Fermat, the question is who trusts the russians when it comes to doing anything in their power to tooth & nail hang onto the title? Just you and Russianbear?

Kramnik changed the playing conditions with glass, yet didn't want it done to him w/potties.

Also, even (as noted above) Kasparov said its reminiscent of the "good old days" where its a russian state emergency once Kramnik lost 1 game.

Theodulf - I saw Nataf as well. I don't think he was making the mistake you attribute to him (ie how come Kramnik held in games six and seven?); I think his 'psychologically crushed' expression, which gives that impression, was a question of translation. His main thesis, which I believe to be correct, was that Kramnik had spent too much energy on the cheating allegations against him and now had none left to play. I said when Kramnik decided to play on that if he won it would the greatest feat in the history of the championship.

Also, anyone who doesn't know Topalov is considered by a number of GMs to be have cheating recently hasn't been paying attention. There are various differences, the most significant one being that whether Dolmatov is right or wrong there's no reason to believe he is not sincere, whereas before Danailov shut him up Topalov let slip that he doesn't believe Kramnik is cheating. Also, of course, Kramnik has nothing to do with Dolmatov and that was an accusation made ages before the match.

As to the screen thing, if you bring a parapsychologist (whatever the hell they are) with you, you do rather invite this sort of thing.

Dondo; US law is different from UK in this regard. Here if you're set to perform a task you've no obligation to do it until the other party sets the conditions in place, especially a task like playing a game of chess where making it very very slightly more difficult may be the critical factor that makes you fail. Even in the context of what I understand to be US law I struggle to see how any change in the contractual conditions of play in a WC match could be a minor or non-material one. But as I said before it doesn't matter what either of us think but what Swiss law has to say.

Another reason Kramnik should never have played on is that he needs to assess his match strategy in the light of the legal advice he gets on game five. Anyone who has had anything to do with the law knows how draining and tedious it is to be spending time instructing lawyers.

Has anyone else noticed how juvenile Topalov's supporters are? I haven't read a single reasoned defence of him, and any amount of unmannerly gloating.

@Fermat:

you are right! Look at the pictures at http://www.worldchess2006.com/main.asp?id=1078

In the second one, Topalov picks something out of his pocket. In the fourth, when Kramnik enters, there is a pen on his scoresheet which is not there at the second one. All his moves are sent to his pen and from there directly to the scoresheet!!! Topalov then just moves the pieces.

If Topalov wins only 1 more game (+2 draws) in the next three games Kramnik would want the 5th game to be played again.. after all he did win the last game against Leko.. hopefully Topalov would have enough sense to concede such a demand... otherwise we would be back to square 1 with 2 world champions...

Best scenario is for Topalov to win 2 of the next 3 games (he has just one more White).. can he do it??

Topalov should give Kramnik his own medicine now.

Draw every single remaining game and walk away the champion - just to rub in the extra point by forfeit.

"the only way to do it is to attach a Rybka in a plastic house to a sensitive part of Topalov's body. Then he has somehow to type in Kramnik's moves after each move is made, right in front of the cameras, and decode the morse signals that the machine is giving.
Very elaborate."

He wouldn't need anything that crazy. In the first place, Topalov doesn't need to transmit the moves. The games are broadcast in real time, all over the world. The moves are not the players' private information that Topalov would need to transmit in secret.

Secondly, he wouldn't need any bizarre mini-Rybka attached to his body. Anything small that could vibrate could be worn somewhere discretely on the body could be used to receive morse-code style pulsations from a remote sender. For example, Topalov receives four pulses first, indicating "d", then two pulses, indicating "2". From this he knows that the piece on d2 should be moved. Then a like string of pulsations indicates the destination square.

Not that I think anything like this is happening. The "proof" offered thus far is pure gossamer. But he doesn't need a quantum computer up his ass, and connected to his eyebrow nerves, to cheat, if that's what he wants to do.

Chris Anderson, I think you may have just described it how Topalov cheats!

rdh said:
"Here is the Barsky article in case anyone is interested

http://prosports.ru/index.ipj?clsid=3795239278-6953-16397-191&method=getArticle&id=73936&rubric_id=39361

My Russian isn't that great, but I understand the star exhibit is the game Topalov-Moro from San Luis, where Topalov after a lot of very accurate play overlooked a perpetual check trick from Moro which computers also overlook, and instead moved his rook to the square which computers tend to. As we know, computers do sometimes overlook perpetual check tricks which a strong player would see (or not see in the case of Kramnik-Deep Fritz) for reasons to do with their event horizon. I don't find this on its own terribly compelling: my personal opinion is that neither one is cheating at all, except of course for Topalov's flagrantly unethical behaviour."

My Russian is weak also, but combining it with translation by babelfish.altavista.com is useful. Sorry I can't paste in the automatic link in here; you'll have to do a few keystrokes. There are comments by many players below the article. I like what Kasimzhdanov said; he's always been an outspoken guy. Remember that when see "peace" substitute "world"; they are the same word in Russian.

Kasimzhdanov said:
"Another pair of years on the championships of peace there were ago rumors about the fact that someone allegedly used "Fritz". This crude violation, but then with this still it was possible to somehow fight, using its talent, its brains. Now this is simply impossible... In connection with the development of science the danger grows: technologies become increasingly better, and conscience in people it remains increasingly less. Checking to the metals in that form, in which it was in San- Louis, befitted only in order to determine: there is in man in the pocket machine gun or no. Everything, which is less than the machine gun, easily departed from under the control. It was easy to carry "Poket- Fritz", to say nothing of transmitter in the ear. In each participant was its rest area, which used outside people. Let us say, during the party to someone of the spectators strongly it was wanted into the toilet. It winked to judges and quickly it escaped into one of the rooms, where he has the possibility to establish everything that conveniently up to to the enormous server with "Fritz". Who all this checked?!"

So a former FIDE champion believes it's all suspect now.

rdh also said, on a slightly different topic:
"David Quinn: I do wonder why I bothered. If you think someone who misses a tablebase win is a computer cheat, then in truth there's just no point in debate."

You claimed that Kramnik missed a tablebase win but you haven't shown that. I've never seen notes that point it out. The chesspro.ru notes imply that there is no mistake at all in the 6 piece ending of game 2.

So please produce the evidence of Kramnik messing up in that 6 piece ending.

Arf! You made my day! I wonder what I really prefer: this blog or a chess game...

I'll bring the beer. Pop-corn, anyone?

from the dail dirt

An unnamed participant in the World Chess Championship in San Luis, Argentina, has accused Chess King Bulgarian Vesselin Topalov of using unallowed measures to win the title, index.hu reported.

According to the article published on the site the allegations remained secret because of "games behind the curtain." Such allegations, however, are common for the chess world. It is not clear who has raised the allegations against the Chess King, but this man claims that during several games aide Ivan Cheparinov and manager Silvio Danailov have helped Topalov.

The site reports that after each move of Topalov, Cheparinov has used computer analysis of the game and has then secretly signaled the chess king for the next move. Peter Leko has also voiced his suspicions that Topalov has used unfair advantage by sitting on the same place during the entire championship. FIDE however, has not undertaken any measures due to lack of evidence.

Comments about Topalov cheating are ... well my feelings are somewhat mixed.

First of all, the last two games were everything but a superhero performance by Topalov. Kramnik really played BAD. Castling today was totally ridiculous (I never use computers when I watch the broadcasts, and my patzer 2200 level was enough to understand that). Such a move like Qa5 would have been much better. Then, 13)b4 is quite a weak move, again...

Game 8 : Kramnik's decision to trade queens in a position (20 Qxb4) where his opponent has the king left in the center of the board is highly questionnable. With queens traded, this is an endgame, and the king on the center of the board becomes an advantage. No need to be 2750 to understand that.
Second poor move : 31)h4. In a position where Topalov has still difficulties to find a path to victory, Kramnik will open himself the game on the king's side.
Third poor move : 39)f4. Well... would a 1700 play such a move, I would try to explain him basic principles of chess... how can Kramnik offer the e4 square to Topalov's knights so easily?
Fourth poor move : 41)Kxg3. Suicide in one move.

Some of you may think that all that was Fritz evaluations. But again, no. It's just my 2200 level. After the game, I had a look at the game with Fritz. Fritz considers that those moves are giving between 0.7 points and 2 eval points. I mean... I'm everything but a chess hero. If I can see it otb that those moves are bad, how can Kramnik play so many of them in a row???

Two explanations are possible. Either he's very ill, or he's affected by the turn of events. But the conclusion is simple : Kramnik plays awfully bad chess. He is really far from his level. And... believe me, Fermat, when you are rated 2800, you REALLY don't need Rybka, Fritz or Junior to outplay an opponent playing the moves quoted above.

1.Steinitz
2.Lasker
3.Capablanca
4.Alekhine
5.Botwinik
6.Euwe
7.Smyslov
8.Petrosian
9.Tal
10.Spassky
11.Fischer
12.Karpov
13.Kasparov
14.Topalov

The rest of the player were "only" good players but NO world chess champions (Keres, Korchnoi,Larsen, Timman etc etc)also Ponomariov, Anand, Halifman, Aronian, Leko , etc etc.

Congratulations Mr. TOPALOV World Chess Champion # 14.
Rafael LLanos
Texas.

David Quinn: Look, I'm sorry, but I can't be bothered, to be honest. Svidler's notes are produced quickly: I doubt he'd looked at his tablebase. Like I said it's in Mig's blog comments to the game, though he doesn't give the variations. I assume you've got a computer - ask that. If you think ...Bc5-b4 in that Slav game was suspicious, then you'll think what you want to think.

Maybe chess is going to get like bridge where there are these cheating rumours/allegations in every tournament? I was reading Terence Reese's account of the investigation into the American allegations against him in 1965 the other day, and something in it struck a chord in the light of Elista. Schapiro giving evidence is asked what the British captain should have done when the allegation was made:

'You mean a decent captain? I should have thought the attitude of Signor Perroux [the Italian captain, also the subject of US allegations] would have been the adequate one.....'D'abord je les aurai assomme, puis j'emmenerai mon equipe'.

("First I would have killed them, then I would have taken my team home.")

Pity Hensel hadn't read that.

Congratulation to GM Topalov!!!!!!!!!! you will the worthy champion after Kasparov. Long Live fighting chess.

Congratulation to GM Topalov!!!!!!!!!! you will the worthy champion after Kasparov. Long Live fighting chess.

What's needed so both sides believe the other isn't cheating?

Playing naked, blindfold chess with earplugs in?

Fermat: I wouldn't pay too much attention to what great chessplayers say about cheating, (such as Moro and Dolmatov and such) It is well known that many great players are super paranoid. Korchnoi's opinion on cheating is meaningless. He worked himself up to a blather over the presence of Zhokar in the Baguio match for no reason.

It sounds too far fetched that either of these players would take the chance to use comps during a match. I suppose anything is possible, but it is far fetched. To get fixated over this crazy idea is to also imagine that a comet is due to land right on the board during game 11. I mean, anything is possible. But I prefer to focus on realistic things.

Bottom line is that Topa wouldn't need a computer to defeat Kramnik in this match. Krammy has been playing dull anti chess, and as someone else has mentioned, his defence in today's game was childish.

Aside from his good play in the Olympiad and his final game against Leko, I haven't seen much from him. He's got a Hell of a lot to prove, in my opinion.

a week ago topalov was a scumbag and a cheater and now because we won a couble of games he is a hero an chess savior!!!!!!
may be danailov was right after all people care only about the results

Re game 2: AFAIK, Mig himself was the first to point out the 6-man db errors made by both players. Nunn provided anaylsis on the chessbase site.

I posted the following analysis on rgca and rgcc soon after the game was over (numerous typos were caught by Antonio Torrecillas):

Topalov,V - Kramnik,V [D19]
2006 World Championship Match (2)
[Shredder 6-man DB / Bill Brock]

1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 dxc4 5.a4 Bf5 6.e3 e6 7.Bxc4 Bb4 8.0-0
Nbd7 9.Qe2 Bg6 10.e4 0-0 11.Bd3 Bh5 12.e5 Nd5 13.Nxd5 cxd5 14.Qe3 Bg6
15.Ng5 Re8 16.f4 Bxd3 17.Qxd3 f5 18.Be3 Nf8 19.Kh1 Rc8 20.g4 Qd7 21.Rg1
Be7 22.Nf3 Rc4 23.Rg2 fxg4 24.Rxg4 Rxa4 25.Rag1 g6 26.h4 Rb4 27.h5 Qb5
28.Qc2 Rxb2 29.hxg6 h5 30.g7 hxg4 31.gxf8Q+ Bxf8 32.Qg6+ Bg7 33.f5 Re7
34.f6 Qe2 35.Qxg4 Rf7 36.Rc1 Rc2 37.Rxc2 Qd1+ 38.Kg2 Qxc2+ 39.Kg3 Qe4
40.Bf4 Qf5 41.Qxf5 exf5 42.Bg5 a5 43.Kf4 a4 44.Kxf5 a3 45.Bc1 Bf8 46.e6
Rc7 47.Bxa3 Bxa3 48.Ke5 Rc1 49.Ng5 Rf1 50.e7 Re1+ 51.Kxd5 Bxe7 52.fxe7
Rxe7 53.Kd6 Re1 [Nunn Convention 53...Re3! 54.d5 Kf8! 55.Kd7 b5!
56.Ne6+ Kg8!! (56...Kf7 maintains the win, but makes no progress after
57.Nd8+ Kf8! 58.Ne6+) 57.d6 b4! 58.Nc5 Kf7! 59.Kd8 (59.Kc7 Rc3!)
59...b3 and wins] 54.d5 Kf8 55.Ne6+ [55.Kd7! b5 56.Ne6+ Kg8 (56...Kf7
57.Nd8+! Kf6 58.Nc6!) 57.d6 (not the only move, but perhaps the most
logical) 57...b4 58.Nc5! Kf7 59.Kc6! Rc1 60.Kb5! Rxc5+ 61.Kxc5! b3
62.Kc6!] 55...Ke8 56.Nc7+ Kd8 57.Ne6+ Kc8 58.Ke7 Rh1 59.Ng5 b5 60.d6
Rd1 61.Ne6 b4 62.Nc5 Re1+ 63.Kf6 Re3 0-1

And I'd forgotten about the *other* aesthetic disagreement I'd had with Mig--that is, is 56...Kg8!! more beautiful than Zapruder frame 157?

Or something like that.

Nunn's commentary at the end of this article:

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3366

The time has come to remind Kramnik and
Anand of the countless draws they played
robbing the sponsors and chess lovers of
their time and money. This negative attitude
and play safe, "protect your Elo" culture has
become so ingrained in Kramnik, Anand and
Leko that they are humiliated by Topa
Hurricane. Serves them Well !

Only Kasparov or the Young Carlsen or Nakamura
have the balls to take on Topa Hurricane

Hey RDH, how's this for a reasonable pro-Topalov arguement? Actually, I'm just reiterating a good point made by someones else which you've ignored aparently...

Kramnik (fully knowing the situation, dealing with accusations/tricks, his lawyers, game 5 protest, etc) agrees to continue playing games 6 through 12. This means he'll accept the result of those games officially. So what excuse will he, or his fans, have if he loses by 2 points? Kramnik himself agreed to go. Game 5 forfeit will be pointless.

Does Topalov cheat?

Do the players go through a metal detector?

If not: cheating can not be ruled out.

End of discussion.

Ps: you do not need to cheat on every move, or even on many moves, just cheating on one single move can turn the game around in your advantage. (It would of course be unethical no matter what.)

Those of you saying Kramnick's career is over if he loses - are you complete idiots? Look at chess history - Kasparov is the only champion to retire anywhere near his prime (omitting Fischer, who didn't exactly retire either).

Most world champions and (and candidates, too) played on, for many, many years after losing their crowns. Some even won their crowns back. Kramnick is a super-GM, and he will be getting invitations to all the best tournaments for many years to come. Both players are relatively young, so we will see many more Kramnick-Topalov games. Perhaps Kramnick will once again play for the crown, who knows?

After Topalov loses his crown to Radjabov, or Carlson, Kramnick will still be out there playing, and I doubt he'll be so weakened, even ten years from now. We still see Karpov (world #44 today, champion 20 years ago) and Spassky (rated 2548 today, champion 35 years ago) still playing GM chess, if not super-GM chess.

So get over your 'Kramnick is dead'! Long live Kramnick!

nick said:

"Does Topalov cheat?

Do the players go through a metal detector?

If not: cheating can not be ruled out.

End of discussion."

Please read what Kasimzhdanov wrote, that babelfish translated from the Russian. He says that the metal detector could only catch something of the size of a small machine gun!

FERMAT...

Intead of faking possible conspiracy theories... learn a bit aboout chess!!! Invinting stories about others is not going to be your life more succesful, no bashing others ... everything starts by doing good things by your own merits.

What a disgraceful use of the last name of a known mathematician!!

I congratulate Topalov for this victory, although I consider this an underpar game from Kramnik. I consider a 2600+ GM wouldn't need a computer to judge some poor moves of Kramnik today ... in other words, even a computer type argument is absurd when Kramnik himself falls in such a poor position (maybe for Topalov opening preparation).
To make it clearer, I consider a human analysis of the game by a well known GM would not give today many ! and not a !! for Topalov moves, but a lot of ?! and ? judgement to several Kramnik moves.

I consider the key point of the match was that Topalov was able to win a first game against Topalov. Now convinced he can win against Kramnik, Kramnik weaknesses are revealed and Topalov feels more confident. It remembers the case of Shirov ... he has a plus score against Kramnik and he had defeated him sometimes without necessarilly superlative play, but I guess the attitude and the belief you can defeat another player makes a great difference.

For the record, I think both players' styles have their merits, and I certainly hope that whichever player loses continues to compete for a long time.

Fermat, you are baiting us with "do you dare to disagree with Dolmatov? Do you think you know more about computers and chess than Dolmatov?" Well, here's the short answer to that. If it's really "OBVIOUS TO ANYONE WHO KNOWS ABOUT CHESS AND COMPUTERS" that Topalov is a computer chess cheat, then why doesn't team Kramnik say so? Why aren't there published statements from more people than Dolmatov and maybe Moro and Barsky? Why in short does the Russian Chess Federation, with all its GMs who know about chess and computers, come forward and publicly denounce Topalov, if it's so darned "obvious"? Are they all part of the conspiracy too? The conclusion I draw is that Dolmatov might be convinced, but there must be hundreds of Russian GMs who are NOT convinced.

Interesting point David Quinn. (Well... if it is true.)

Another thing: "They wouldn't dare..." or excuses like that: realize this: the bigger the lie, the easier people will believe it.
"They wouldn't dare" just is not good enough. Examples from politics are plentiful, but let's not go there.
What should be perfectly clear by now: the Topalov/Danailov team has shown they have NO standards whatsoever.

Mark Crowther (above, 2006/10/07 11:08) wrote:
"I wouldn't rule out Kramnik's chances entirely, but its going to take a big novelty tomorrow to do it."

Mark wrote those words when one player was ahead 5:4 in points. This is a lead of 1 victory, the smallest lead possible. There are 3 games remaining. Half of the match's 8 played games have ended decisively (non-drawn).

Those statistics indicate one or two more victories will likely occur in the remaining 3 games. That stands against Crowther's implication that Kramnik's chances of winning this match have falled so low as to be almost entirely excluded.

So either [AA] or [BB] must be true:

[AA]
Crowther's words are a little exaggerated.
Chess is not so played out that it is hard to find any "novel" strong moves until well into the middle game (say move pair 15-17).

--OR--

[BB]
The rules of chess are badly in need of re-consideration. The high draw rate has partially suffocated chess at the level of the World Chess Championship match.

The high draw rate is inflated by the currently chosen rules of chess; it is not inherent in chess in principle. We have inflicted an inflated draw rate on chess.

- - - - - 1988 Plaskett Predicted/Envisaged - - - - -

Long before Kasparov-Kramnik 2000, in the 1988/08 issue of the magazine Pergamon Chess there was a review of chess the book "Playing to Win" by James Plaskett (publ. Batsford, page 34). The reviewer wrote:

"[Plaskett] criticized Grandmasters who play for draws and envisages the banning of the Petroff Defense. He regards deep opening preparation refuting previous analysis as inimical to the sporting idea."

Topalov has avoided 1. e24, thus side-stepping the issue Plaskett predicted. Maybe Topalov has avoided 1. e24 (thru games 1-9) because of the Petroff phenomenon Plaskett noted so long ago, in effect bolstering Plaskett's view.

Kramnik is pulling the Leko of 2004 - trying to hold the lead to the end. I agree with Mark Crowther's novelty comment - Kramnik has been out-prepared by Topalov, and it has shown in the middlegame positions. Topalov with the initiative is dangerous, and the last couple of games he has been able to get into his game.

Now I don't know who to root for - Topalov's team is acting like a fool & Kramnik for all the reasons usually given by the VK bashers. Maybe I'll just root for some good chess.

Here's a question: Does Topalov go to 1.e4 looking for the draw from the Petroff or Berlin ;)

Topalov should make Kramnik take major risks now - Topalov should do what Kramnik is famous for. Playing drawish openings and middlegames and making Kramnik crazily overreach trying to regain a point and causing his position to fall apart.

I would also reccomend playing fast - its working for 2 straight days - Kramnik can't spend 90% of the game in his unsupervised potty.

Notice the relationship of Kramniks play to less potty trips and topalov's fast play w/complicated theoretical novelties.

I honestly hope Topalov draws the next 3 games just so he can rub in the forfeit loss to kramnik thus beating him with kramnik style draws and kramniks own idiocy for forfeiting game 5 LOL!!!

Which direction would you rather chess go:
Ban the Petroff?
Refute the Petroff?
I choose the second. Don't let a temporary fashion in the openings discourage you. Capa, almost 80 years ago wanted a bigger board and more chesspieces, saying chess had been played out.

Classical Chess is Chess

Hey you guys! I'm doing a comparison between Kasparov and Topalov! And Fischer and Topalov! If you ask the program Veselin Topalov of 2005-2006 is tactically by far the strongest player of all time!

Yeah riiii-iiiight!!!!

Pardon the OT....

Would anyone (particularly the alleged cc'd parties) care to comment on the authenticity of this USCF BINFO (now deleted)?

BEGIN QUOTATION

BINFO 200603590
Date 2006-09-25
From samsloan
Status Standard Release
Release Date 2006-10-03
Subject Resolution of the Executive Board

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To: Chessoffice@xxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Resolution of the Executive Board
From: Sam Sloan
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:47:41 -0400
Cc: Joel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Beatchess@xxxxxxx, Rtannerae@xxxxxxx, randallhough@xxxxxxxxx, samsloan@xxxxxxxxxxxx, CHESSJOEL@xxxxxxx, bhall@xxxxxxxxxxx, Chessdon@xxxxxxx, pknight@xxxxxxxxxxx, queencapa@xxxxxxx , USCF BINFO System, Chessoffice@xxxxxxx
Delivered-to: USCF BINFO Systemxxxxxxxxx
Delivered-to: USCF BINFO System
In-reply-to:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 11:00 AM 9/25/2006 -0400, Chessoffice@xxxxxxx wrote:>>I move in open session that the Board approve the following resolution>written by our attorney, Mike Matsler. I vote yes.
> >Bill Goichberg>I am deeply discouraged and disappointed that Bill, acting like a bull in achina shop, has brought this into the public forum by making a publicmotion and posting it to USCF BINFO System, as a result of which this
matter will disseminated and the entire world will know about it in due course.The fact is that my relationship with Zsuzsa Polgar (who now calls herself Susan) was not entirely Platonic. I have been discrete and have not
revealed to anyone other than a few close friends the true nature of our prior relationship, until now. Now, Bill's public motion effectively forces me to reveal what really happened those many years ago. This will do no good either to me, Zsuzsa,
Bill or the USCF, but it appears that now I will have no real choice but to tell the whole story.

Sam Sloan

END QUOTATION

For all those who say Topa is a cheater. Pls tell me one person who believes Topa is a cheater and is not speaking russian?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

And forgot to mention has some credibility!!!
Not the stupid fans!!!!!!

Bobby Fischer won with a forfeit after accepting his own stupid decision not to play resulting in a forfeit.

Kramnik needs to quit whining and do the same thing - its his own fault for not playing. If you want to mention changing playing conditions, Kramnik did this first by requesting glass panels.

Bobby Fischer also said - I don't believe in psychology; I believe in good moves.

Kramnik should heed that advice as well as his fans.

Even if Topalov somehow gets to +3, some people will say that the distraction of pottygate got to Kramnik's head, and still tainted the match. If Topalov wins the match by two, I will accept Topalov as the better player. I will never, of course, condone his off-the-board behavior.

-- Posted by: Marc Shepherd at October 7, 2006 10:51

You want to talk about distractions? KORCHNOI'S SON WAS IN A FVCKING SOVIET GULAG DURING HIS 1978 MATCH WITH KARPOV!

Kramnik was disturbed because he couldn't wonder in and out of the bathroom 50 times a game? You have GOT to be kidding me.

Does anyone claim that Karpov's '78 title was dubious because of all the underhanded Soviet tricks, especially those involving Korchnoi's family?

"For all those who say Topa is a cheater. Pls tell me one person who believes Topa is a cheater and is not speaking russian?"

Peter Leko, although he might speak russian??! Anyone know?

I believe that Korchnoi's son was not imprisoned during the 1978 match, but rather during Merano 1981.

Is it too late for kramnik to walk away?

Kramnik is playing much worse than when he drew Deep Fritz. Except for the 3rd game, in this match he has demonstrated nothing. This match shows the consequences of playing little and thinking much of yourself.

Forfeiting a "white" game, when you are 2 wins up in a title match with only 8 games to go, has to be one of the stupidest blunders ever.

It's funny that you potzers think you are more qualified to comment than Morozevich, Leko, Dolmatow , Kasimdzhanov and others who firmly believe Topalov cheats.

I just looked up Topalov's results from Amber and he has been getting about 50% scores. 5/11, 5.5/11 6.5/11 being his best! Those games if you check them with computer are full of mistakes! And these last games he has been playing rapid chess and beating Kramnik in classical chess! No one believes it!

Listen to the German tourney organizer. Everyone is now suspecting Topalov. He might get a ban to Linares, Dortmund and Corus!!

Fermat: Do you have any source for your information that Leko charged Topalov with cheating, OTHER than that reference in a supposed English summary of an article in Hungarian (the "unnamed participant" article), where the "summary" said the Leko shared the suspicions, but the article apparently didn't (see discussion here: http://www.chessninja.com/cgi-bin/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=686 )
So do you have something else?

Russians have no credibility. They had admitted to pre-arranged wins/losses/draws etc.

When it comes to their willingness to say/do anything to retain the title, their credibility is nil.

Particularly when the player they are defending is the losing russian.

Fermat = RussianBear = Hensel

No, the funny thing would be if Leko and Moro and Kasimjanov "firmly believed" that Topalov was a comp cheat, but they couldn't think of any way to get the word out other than to encourage some anonymous person to write on Mig's blog under the name of "fermat".

Of course my words

"I wouldn't rule out Kramnik's chances entirely, but its going to take a big novelty tomorrow to do it."

are slight hyperboly but it seems to me the tide has changed so conclusively against Kramnik that only a big advantage from the opening could repair that. In general play I don't see it happening and tomorrow seems to me the day it has to happen.

On the computer allegations, Morozevich (and indeed Fischer) are/were great players but it doesn't mean that they don't have human biases away from the board. I think if you look hard enough at the winner of any event you can find suspicions. I've also had it said to me that at San Luis Topalov was much calmer than expected. In the past he was one of the most nervy players on the circuit. It seems to me that computer assistance would not be the most logical explanation. You're cheating and you're going to behave less nervously? You could say drugs, but also I would add from my own personal experience as one of the most nervy players ever that I suddenly and inexplicably didn't have the same melt downs I had regularly in my 20s starting in my early 30s.

An additional point about San Luis computer chess cheating is that there were suspicions during the event and I just don't see how you could do it without totally giving the game away if people were watching for it.

Fermat all you are saying is stupid man, stop posting!!!!German organisers are saying this because Dortmund is out ot the "Great Slam" Also everybody knows that Hansel is german and that Kramnik and Leko are the most loved Dortmund tournament players. T

Can't you read theodulf? Kasimdzhanov gave an interview in which he made these allegations, without direct accusations. Leko in all probability made them to a Hungarian chess journalist. Morozevich made his second, Barsky, to write that article. And Dolmatow spoke on behalf of many Russian GMs. You know why they won't act like Danailov did, because people like you would get enraged and some tourney organizers might not invite them then.

But as said, top GMs are already ignoring invitations to MTel because they think Topalov cheats. Morozevich voted 1) Rybka and 3) Danailov for Chess Oscar.

They can attack Kramnik in such manner, then they can also cheat. They have proven that results is the only thing that matters to them.

You think that Topalov can play here rapid chess speed at 2900+ tactical level but at Amber has played 300+ points below that level.

The only question is how do they cheat, and it is ridiculous you won't accept this fact.

Or do you seriously think that Veselin Topalov has suddenly developed into the best tactical player of all time? Do yourself a comparison between Topalov 2005-2006 and Kasparov and Fischer in their prime. The program will tell you that Topalov is even better than them tactically! Much better! Especially in the second half of the tournament...

Do you seriously believe that Topalov is much much better than Fischer? Because he is playing like it, if you ask the program.

But not at amber!

At least you should demand this matter will be thoroughly investigated. Don't forget computers are 3000 tactical strenght in middle-game. Like Topalov has been in 2005-2006...

You see these facts, you can't deny them yet you say paranoia...

Carl Lewis was a doping druggie and Topalov is a computer cheat.

Just accept it you guys.

Mark C., "a big novelty" would be nice, of course, but if Kramnik can just achieve a nice position with a bit of an edge AND make something of it, that might suffice. It's his speciality, isn't it? But I am not very hopeful now.
Game 9 was not the Kramnik I know, not at all. It was quite sad.

Topalov played Wijk aan Zee and Linares, enough for most people, then he moved on to play Amber only a week or so after. You can correct me but as far as I can remember no-one's ever done well at all three events. Its one of the great calendar problems in world chess at the moment.

Fermat, you bring up Fischer. Did Bobby accept his stupid forfeit and end up winning? Or did he cry and hire lawyers and have other GM's singing funeral dirches on chessbase.com?

Remember what he said?

I don't believe in psychology, I believe in good moves.

That shoots down the - Oh kramniks feelings were hurt so now he plays like a girl until he gets over it.

I'm really enjoying Fermat's post. they are really funny. Morozevich also accused Kasparov of cheating. i wouldnt doubt he's accused anyone else whos owned him.

dont u get it Fermat? nobody believes u, or the articles written by those GMs u keep referring to. we're waiting for solid proof, not circumstance or coincidence. otherwise topalov fans will just say Kramnik is the cheater by visiting bathroom 30 times per game and also his moves were at 90% same as Fritz. he has to be cheating! itll just go back and forth. in the meantime Topalov will be crowned champ and nobody will care what u or morozevich think until u bring proof. but hey, u can keep calling us naive. lol.

We'll have to see Charles. The game 9 novelty would have been terribly hard to counter even if Kramnik had been in best form. From Topalov's point of view he will always have the achievements he has late in this match will be clowded by what ifs and that's quite right too. This savage campaign waged by his camp clearly has affected Kramnik and for the majority of people its stepped way over any kind of acceptable psychological warfare.

One more point on Topalov. I was there in Wijk aan Zee. Cheparinov was playing chess in a lower event and Danailov was wandering around in the press center a lot of the times and no-one has accused Topalov of cheating there. His standard of play was no different to anywhere else in the past year. I'm pretty sure that team Topalov was only Cheparinov and Danailov at Wijk.

Lets get facts straight. Kramnik made the first inference of Topalov cheating AND the first "change in playing conditions" by requesting the glass.

Did topalov wet his panties and cry to the world or play like a man and lose 2 games [one of which was drawn and one of which was a mate in 3]?

Next, Kramniks behavior IS suspicious with 50+ trips to the unsupervised potty. If you think nothing fishy was going on with that look at the facts.

1. million trips to potty = winning & drawing.
2. draws games AFTER the forfeit [shooting down the argument his spirit was broken & he couldn't play then]
3. Topalov plays fast, kramnik can't go to unsupervised potty and kramnik takes 2 losses.

Yes Kramnik made first cheating inference, first change to conditions. Topalov took it like a man. When topalov did both of the same things, kramnik wet his panties, cried like a girl, refused to play like a child - and is now losing because topalov is playing fast keeping him out of his unsupervised potty!

deal with it

My general view is about the same as HorseFeathers. I would rate Kramnik's sportsmanship worse, because the bathroom issue is quite egregious. This isn't a criminal trial, and the participants are not entitled to the standard of "innocent until proven guilty". The rules are to protect chess and the title first of all, and the organizers have the rights to adjust conditions fairly to preserve the highest purpose of the match.

It's maybe too simple, but I really think that for the remainder of the match, the shoes should be taken and slippers given to the players.

The shoes don't even have to pass thru the metal detector. It's too easy to hide a receiver in there.

Marc,
that campaign isnt affect Kramnik's play -- look at the first 2 games -- he's not playing better in them

and plz look at the Danailov interview after 4th game (about his protest and Kramnik behaviour in the negotiations):
http://standartnews.com/en/article.php?d=2006-10-02&article=1056

Let's say that Topa really cheats, that is he uses computer assistance. In this case one has to admit that he is doing this in an artful way - nobody can catch him red handed. This means that he is the smartest guy around and his word champion title is fully deserved.

Am I the only one who thinks that Kramnik resigned too early? Sure, the final position looks lost for him but what would happen if he played on? He's only a pawn down with plenty of material on the board.

Usually, when a game is resigned under similiar circumstances, you see (for the benefit of patzers like myself) some final analysis that shows the losing side going downhill fast within a few moves. But apparently everybody thinks that what would happen next in this game is just too obvious to bother with the possible continuations.

Bill Brock, thanks for providing the analysis of the Game 2 six-piece endgame.

So to win this Black must play 10 often unintuitive moves in a row. That really would be a big hint of tablebase use. It's not impossible (let's assume that someone is transmitting to Kramnik) that they noticed the truly superhuman difficulty of figuring it out OTB and decided to put in a wrong move for this very reason. These guys are very clever, not just the contestants but their seconds. So the tablebase error is evidence, but not conclusive evidence to me, that Kramnik was not assisted.

My general view is that we've got to design a new tournament format, some new conventions that prevent cheating. Whether or not either of these players are cheating in this match, there are unfortunate suspicions. Chess organizers had better find a way to minimize these suspicions, for everyone's sake.

Otherwise it's a cesspool that victimizes most especially the honest players.

'Has anyone else noticed how juvenile Topalov's supporters are? I haven't read a single reasoned defence of him, and any amount of unmannerly gloating.' rdh

I agree all the way. The cretin Topalov and his supporters deserve each other. Meanwhile no money for chess while the public opinion of chess takes another nose dive.

"Let's say that Topa really cheats, that is he uses computer assistance. In this case one has to admit that he is doing this in an artful way - nobody can catch him red handed. This means that he is the smartest guy around and his word champion title is fully deserved."

Yep. The Marita Koch of chess. She is the most successful women sprint athlete ever. 16 outdoors world records. 14 world records indoors. Countless gold medals. She run 400 metres in 47,6, which is even tougher record to break than Michael Johnson's 19,32.

This is what wikipedia says about her:

"Koch's achievements, along with the extraordinary performances many other East German female athletes, aroused considerable suspicion at the time that they were achieved with the aid of anabolic steroids or other performance-enhancing drugs, which were and remain illegal but were not detectable at the time. In 1991 German anti drug activists Brigitte Berendonk and Werner Franke were able to save several doctoral theses and other documents written by scientists working for the East German drug research program. The documents list the dosage and timetables for the administration of anabolic steroids to many athletes of the former GDR, one of them being Marita Koch. According to the sources Koch did use the anabolic steroid Oral-Turinabol from 1981-1984 with dosages ranging from 530 to 1460 mg/year. Koch never publicly admitted to this."

She never got caught! She really deserved all her success!

You are naive if you think that Topalov couldn't cheat. Chess players are not any better than other athletes.

Jim Foster, I agree. Usually they are playing games out to the bitter end. Black had a truly awful position, but I am surprised he didn't find something to try.

In fact I'm totally shocked Black allowed Rxf7. He could have defended that pawn or maybe played Nf8 which would have prevented this combination. Anyone 2000+ (to be conservative) would be looking at combinations around f7 at that point, so how could a world champion miss it? It's a much worse mistake than Topalov missing the forced mate in Game 2, which was a surprising move that some GMs (not using engines) also missed. Nobody could possibly miss the combination on f7, then Kramnik did.

It's probably the worst GM blunder of the year, or something like that.

Picture of Fermat here, for those interested.

http://tinyurl.com/pa9yz

It wouldnt be the first time Topalov cheated! I recall long ago, in 1999, Topalov cheated on ICC. His handle back then was, Sharkman(GM). He played against what was probably another handle of his, Teseo, four games that Teseo just threw away blundering pieces in 4-10 moves. For what? To get on top of the blitz best list. When ICC adjusted his rating, he didnt play another game under that handle.

He later re-appeared under the handle, Irina(GM), and from over 1000+ games his best rating is 3375 (11-jan 2006). Much lower than the 3500+ ratings by the top blitzers on the site.

Usually blitz correlates very well with OTB ability. Fischer, Kasparov, Tal, Karpov, Anand etc. also top blitz players.

I dont know whether Topalov cheats, but he has in the past! For ICC rating, so not counting out he could do it for money!

Fermat:

1) Dolmatov is not impartial benevolent crusader. Kramnik was his chess pupil. He was Kramnik's second (e.g. vs Adamas in 1999), he was Kramnik's trainer/coach in the Russian Olympic team. All the baseless accusation he put against Topalov, including his interview in July this year were targeting the forthcoming Kramnik-Topalov match and he was directly referring to it.

2) You keep saying "Topalov follows Rybka 95% for two consecutive games, only differing from the first move suggestions and computer's time usage / move pattern when he is already totally winning". Can you show the moves you are talking about? I looked at Rybka moves for today's game just to check this for myself. Skipping opening prep I started with move 20. I noticed that moves 21.Rd1 23.Kh1 and 24.Be3 were all not Rybka first choices. There were many more moves farther down that do not agree with the comps.

3) Bobby Ang has an article were he was asking himself the same question. He claims that he's working with the ICC “computer busters” and he says "Play over Topalov’s games with computer software playing in the background. The top programs nowadays are Fritz, Junior, Shredder, Hiarcs and Rybka (in no particular order) – go ahead and use them all. It is obvious that no computer is playing for Topalov – his risky aggressive style is just not reproduceable in silicon chips."
http://www.indochess.com/news.php?news_id=1950

4) Are you Dolmatov by any chance?

Mark Crowther said: /An additional point about San Luis computer chess cheating is that there were suspicions during the event and I just don't see how you could do it without totally giving the game away if people were watching for it./

Not one for conspiracy theories, but I believe it could be rather trivial. 2-3 crucial moves a game can make all the difference. Impossible to detect. The possibility is there, and we need to take this problem very seriously before these kind of accusations and paranoia destroy the sport.

What will we do in 2030 when you can have 2950 ELO computer in the left lense of your glasses, not visible to others.

Open tournaments? US Open? Weekend tournaments in Michigan? Pardubice Open? FIDE zonal tournaments? It would be hilarious if tournament halls were complex high-tech environments, you see in sci-fi movies.

Then you would be asked, why is this? And you would have to give a long detailed explanation to non chess players, that no we are not crazy, but the computer programs blah blah blah.

All GM's active today are cheating. Computer analysis of top games show a >80% correspondence between their moves (middle-endgame) and top software. The ONLY explanation is that they are all cheating, every one of them. This includes past world champions, with top offenders Fischer (endgames often mirrors Fritz nearly 90%) and Capablanca (let's not forget--he was often referred to as a "chess MACHINE." Coincidence?)

If you are having trouble believing this, you are simply naive.

Fermat,
your argument bringing up the case of East German athletes does not make any sense. I was making fun of people accusing Topa of cheating. I did not make a claim that no athlete ever cheated.
Also, I made an effort and read Barsky article. Some (mostly you) use this article to claim that Moro, Kasimzhdanov, Svidler and others accused Topa of cheating after San Louis. This is just not true. None of them made any direct accusation! Only Barsky makes such claims. Yet, the guy is honest enough to quote other grandmasters who disagree with such insinuations.
Here is what Judith Polgar is quoted as saying (my own translation):
"I was shocked when I learned about these accusations. I looked at Topalov's games and I simply do not believe that he was using computer assistance. Conversely, I think that in San Louis he played very strongly and was very well prepared psychologically and in purely chesswise sense".

I guess you have the other proof of Topa cheating but the margins of this web page are to small to write it down ...

Pay no attention to Fermat's whining.

What no one considers is that humans that continuously practice against computers are going to pick up on "computer moves" and see them more often in real games.

I know when I started using a computer to practice, I quickly began beating all of the people who beat me [dad, buddies etc]. I began to see the tactics better especially.

If bobby fischer had the egtb's, eco databases, rybka etc. in the 1960's, we'd have seen an even more brutal player.

Also sometimes when I'm analyzing games I played [won or lost] and I choose a move, it'll match the computer for a few moves. Usually the more tactical, the more matches. And that's from me a low rated no-name. Imagine at the top. The computers are made to see best moves and GM's spent a lifetime seeing them.

Also, Kramnik is partial to fritz - hence he probably does play it a lot and make moves like it. Ditto for Topalov with Rybka.

Is this too hard for some people to grasp?

Strange claims here.
"He couldn't possibly had developed so much in 2 years!" and "he sucks in rapid, so...". Here some history for those who care.

Already before Novgorod in the mid-1996 Topalov had risen #4 in the world, with his 2750 elo. He won that tournament, too, getting in theory some points more (2755). I think Kasparov was at that time a bit over 2800, Kramnik going up at 2765 (#3), Anand probably #2.Then came 1998 and then... he about disappeared for some years, if I remember right.

Old results from Monaco Amber 2001 which I just saw: Rapid: Topalov 3. (ahead of Anand), Blind: Topalov 1...

So, 10 years, ELO inflating little by little ... Easy to find out several possible reasons for Topalovs strenght. Hasn't he created about a whole new opening-repertoire? No more "second-best" openings like KID's, Benoni's, Dragons, not only 1.e4 anymore... OK, maybe not so difficult for a top-player, but still. And like M. Crowther pointed out: look at him! It's not the same man who played in, say 2001 and respectively in San Luis, or Sofia 2005. It shows, also on the chessboard. At the age of 31 he actually should be at his best.

What a rant... but just trying to be objective.

About the six piece tablebases:

These are too large to fit on a single hard drive, so very few computers have local access to them. They are available over the internet, but there is a good chance that someone cheating wouldn't be able/have time/bother to access them.

Not that I really think anyone is cheating in this match.

For your six-piece database needs (1.1 TB plus a bit more space for 4 & 5 piece tablebases), GMs Illescas (Team Kramnik) and Vallejo Pons (Team Topalov) recommend the 2 TB LaCie Bigger Disk Extreme Hard Drive, which retails for less than $1,000. Just put on your hotel desk & plug into the laptop's USB port!

Seconds' pay being what it is, one wonders whether they're sharing the drive....

Chillrat: The cretin Topalov and his supporters deserve each
other. Meanwhile no money for chess while the public opinion of chess
takes another nose dive.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

I was walking in downtown San Fran at lunch, being Columbus weekend
and all. Anyway, I stopped to check the street chess guys -- loud
discussions was going about "that guy at the World Chess that was
going XXX times to the john during a match..." This is the
public opinion legacy that Kramnik left after this event, sorry to
say.

---

If Topalov wins that event the "allegedly uncooperative" German
organizers will unroll the red carpet for him -- they wouldn't dare do
otherwise. What tournament would ignore the World Champ. Some of you
guys are real jokers, dumb at that.

D.

rdh: Has anyone else noticed how juvenile Topalov's supporters are? I
haven't read a single reasoned defence of him, and any amount of
unmannerly gloating.

---------------

The only person qualified to defend Topalov is he, himself at the
chess board.

There's a great entertainment value after a Topalov win. Watching the
squirming dogs in a panic attack is the icing on the cake. Kramnik
deserves better fans.

D.

Curious facts:

- The stupidity of Danailov's accusations make more good for the image of Kramnik than Kramnik was able to do by himself ... without showing extreme preparation and without being the nicest person, he looked as an angel for some people after Danailov's remarks.

- The stupidity of Fermat's (=Russian Bear?) posts has make more good for the image of Topalov than any Topalov fan was able to do in this forum.

Top GM's turning down Mtel??? Like, #1 Topalov, #2 Anand and #3 Svidler (out of 6).

German organizers may be extremely jealous that a relatively poor Eastern European country like Bulgaria hosts the highest quality tournament appearing out of nowhere in a couple of years. Further, the grey cardinal Danailov is organizing a professional grand slam of tournaments that leaves Dortmund out (but of which will be held in also relatively poor Mexico). How come Russia with all its oligarchs cannot organize such a torunament as Mtel?

Compare the boring Dortmund 2006 (draw, draw, and draw some more!) to the other top tournaments this year. Sounds like sour grapes.

Not only will the top tournaments not boycott Topalov, they will start paying him double and inviting his proteges to secure his participation.

Are 6-piece databases perfectly complete, or do they comprise only a large fraction of the possible number of positions? In other words have all 6 man positions been solved?

Chris, by definition a tablebase includes EVERY possible position having the stated number of men. So, yes, all 6-man positions have been solved. It must be a large number, that's why the earlier posts mentioned it can't fit on a regular (multiple TERAbytes?) hard drive.

At this point the chess world is screwed. Kramnik will lose the match, and regardless of what the final score is, he will sue FIDE and refuse to recognize a unified title. This is going to happen if he loses, regardless of whether the game 5 forfeit is included in the score or not. The only chance for 100% unification at this point is that Kramnik wins by a large enough margin that the round 5 forfeit doesn't come into play. Given the results of the last 2 games, this seems unlikely.

-zhorik

I'd like Kramnik to win Game 10 with White, draw game 11, and then walk away from the match unless the game 5 forfeit was over turned.

Fermat -- I have enjoyed your posts, and am surprised by the vehement, emotional and illogical responses you have received from other chess players. The possibility of cheating, from either side, is one that must not be ruled out when the stakes are so high in a title competition. Yet, rather than engage in discussion based on facts and evidence, many here seem to prefer ranting and flaming. Alarmingly similar to the reaction one gets in America these days at the suggestion that the US Government hasn't been completely pure and noble in all of its recent policies. Blind support of your political party = blind support for your favorite player = blind ignorance. Apparently a comforting position for many. Good luck casting your pearls in this forum!

zhorik, you mean the chess world is not already screwed anyway with Ilyumzhinov & co. in charge of everything? Perhaps the best result is that a Kramnik loss leads to a mass revolt against them. So there could be a silver lining.

Dimi pay attention --

chess players = small percentage of population who have detailed understanding of chess world.
public = large percentage of population who barely know how the pieces move and now think chess players are a bunch of cheaters.

'The only person qualified to defend Topalov is he, himself at the
chess board.' dimi

Are you for real? So anything Topalov does away from the board can be defended at the board? The ends justify the means? You would make a great facsist, or maybe your the one who is dumb.

Has anyone else seen this from the Sofia News Agency? It mentions this website, apparently they took Migs humorous suggestion with seriousness.

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=70779

Thanks for the reply Jon Jacobs. I was thinking, I bet a lot of classic endgame puzzles could be "cooked" by such a tablebase.

>>'The only person qualified to defend Topalov is he, himself at the
chess board.' dimi

>Rat: So anything Topalov does away from the board can be defended at the board?

So where exactly do you suggest to resolve chess games?

In the toilet?

D.

Stephen W: Has anyone else seen this from the Sofia News Agency? It mentions this website, apparently they took Migs humorous suggestion with seriousness.

When they taught reading comprehension in 1-st grade you must have been stuck in the toilet too. What a waste.

D.

Dimi: I'll be civil... Any news agency reporting on an obscure american chess blog is strange. The picture may be funny, but the implication is innuendo.

since topalov accused kramnik of cheating without good resons then we should accuse him of cheating with half good resons and he has to prove that he is innocent although i wouldnot accept that from some one who accepted afree point by cheating and dirty triks

fff: since topalov accused kramnik of cheating without good resons
then we should accuse him of cheating with half good resons

Good point. Post that to Kramnik's Web site. He needs quality support
right now. You'll be in good company over there.

D.

BTW how many positions is in the 6 man TB I wonder?

Stephen W: Any news agency reporting on an obscure american chess blog is strange.

You call this blog "obscure"? When the World finaly starts paying attention to chess again?

Anyway, your homework is not complete. Read the original story again and prepare corrections to your interpretation.

Hint: pay attention to quote/unquote & and the age of the photograph as stated in the story.

D. /not a 1-st grade teacher/

corned_beef -- I have enjoyed your posts, and am surprised at the vehement and emotional responses. Cheating clearly occurs whenever GM-software matches exceed 80%. Case closed. Yet rather engage in a civil dialogue people prefer to flame me--I mean you--and this is really uncalled for. So keep up the good work, corned_beef.

As for tablebases containing every possible position of the 6 pieces, that's not quite right. Since we are not including pawns, then positions which are mirror images, symetrical, or rotations of the board need not be tabulated.

I don't know what you mean by 'since we are not including pawns', tjallen. The tablebases do include pawns. The limited version you get with fritz 9 is mainly advertised as useful because of RPP -v- R positions. The two big revelations of the base were that Q g+h -v- Q is drawn in the general case (defending king in front of the pawn) and that knight and doubled pawn was won in the general case with a knight's pawn but only with a knight's pawn. I'm not sure how mirror positions are treated by the machine: certainly you can put mirror positions in and it still gives the answers, but maybe internally it goes away and finds the answer by accessing the mirrored position it does have stored.

In reply to someone higher up: even if Topalov does win by +2 then the result would have been equal had Kramnik won game five, or do you mean if Topalov manages to achieve +2 over the board and thus +3 according to FIDE (now impossible, of course)?

David Quinn: you are truly beyond reason. Once you start saying that the players are cheating but that they are deliberately playing losing moves to avoid being caught then it's time to have yourself psychologically checked, quite honestly.

Fascinating how many posters are still on the 50+ figure. It just goes to show how very, very effective lying is, at any rate where the constituency you are aiming at are morons.

It seems like people spend more time insulting each other here rather than looking at the facts.
No one in sound mind would think that Kramnik is cheating. He would stand to lose too much: his highest achievment so far (and most likely for the rest of his life) - the win over Kasparov. Is a win over Topalov worth it? Nea..

Is Topalov a better player? There is no definite proof. He was stagnant for years until 2 years ago when all of a sudden he catapultet to 2800. Before that everyone was talking Anand and Leko. Kasparov said that Kramnik's understanding of chess is much deeper than Topa's. Hard to argue with Garry on chess matters.

I didn't expect Topa to pick a point he didn;t earn at the board. Otherwise I have no problems wih him. I like his uncompromising style. But somewhere deep I do worry - is he cheating?!

Did anyone point this out? There is a very simple reason why Topalov outprepares Kramnik so often:

http://www.chesscenter.com/twic/kramnikbanner.gif