WCh Tiebreaks!(?!)

First tiebreak game should start as usual: 3:00PM local time, 7:00AM EST.

So it's come to this - rapid tiebreaks to decide who the greatest chess player in the world is. All a bit irrelevant when the greatest chess player alive is now a would-be politician.

I think the sound we can hear is all the departed ex-champions spinning in their graves...

"FIDE has managed to put him in a no-lose situation"

this is missing something. without the scandal Kramnik would now be the unified WC, assuming game 5 draw. But now he can loose something.

So Fide has managed to put him from a clear win into a lose situation (he can lose the "unified" and stay "classical")

The real question is... what happens if Kramnik wins? Are we really unified? For a few months perhaps, but I don't really see him following along with the logic the next WCC Tournament will actually be for the title "World Champion". I think he likes the match format and the history involved in that, so I really don't see him going along with the new arbitrary challengers and round-robin tournaments for the title.

I hope I am wrong, but I just see more of a headache in a few months.

But then again, I am still rooting for him tomorrow, because Danailov is horrible.

"How is it we always manage to screw these things up so badly?"

Because FIDE stopped being a professional organization focused on the promotion of the sport after Euwe.

Olafsson wasn't horrible, but he was totally ignorant of the rising thuggery taking over his bureaucracy.

Campomanes was simply a criminal, as is Kirsan.

Organizations run by stupid, self-absorbed mafiosa types don't tend to be devoid of this sort of stupidity.

Well,
Topa is going to win them. He will be both rapid chess and classical chess champion. But until when Russian mafia will dominate chess?????

http://www.veselintopalov.net/article/presidential-airplane-not-allowed-by-russian-authorities

If I were Bulgarian I would take this as an offence to the whole country. Only Toopalov knows how difficult it is to play in Russia. He had problems at his house, he found strangers in his room the first two round, he is under constant media fire.
Danailov may not be the best manager in terms of publicity, but he certainly protected Topalov from a lot of difficult situations.
So I really hope Topalov wins against Kremlin and against the defensive chess of Kramnik.

"Kramnik is now playing for two results: inified title and classical title"

Realistically speaking, we can already forget about unification, because neither Kramnik nor Topalov is going to recognize the other as the unified champ, no matter what FIDE is going to proclaim.

If we go by public opinion, as distinct from FIDE rules, contracts, psycho-war, and what have you, then Kramnik has already won the battle for the classical title, by virtue of his 6-5 win over the board, or, if we count the stolen point, by virtue of a 6-6 tie with draw odds according to classical tradition. Long live the old and new classical champ!

So, Kramnik is playing for the rapid title in the continuation of this match!

That would also be a unified title, BTW, although the adjective 'unified' here has a different meaning: Classical and Rapid Chess Champion of the World, and the Rapid title holder would have to further unify with Anand :-)

Poor, poor white and puffy Topy,
We should send him a WC gift. A toilet seat, may be?

And for all that keep making jokes....
Topalov's villa has 21 rooms, Kramnik's has 21 bathrooms :)

After the match Topalov will receive a cup, Kramnik will get a toilet seat;)

Poor team Topalov without bathrooms? No wonder Topalov contracted herpes and Danailov contracted a red rash

Another joke....
Kramnik is not supported by Kremlin

And Topalov hired the Bulgarian president as his personal airplane pilot :-)

And one that may be very funny in the future. Imagine the armagedon game Topalov playing black and Kramnik attacking:) It will be fun. Until now we did not have a single game where Kramnik was attacking. Boring boring chess from Kramnik's side. I am really looking forward to Topalov Radjabov match!

a funnier joke is: Topalov is not supported by Sofia

zero@ego.com,
Yes Topalov is supported by Sofia since the scandal, but can you compare Sofia to Kremlin???????? If you try it will be one more joke, and as I said enough of jokes. The situatuion is more than serious. Kramnik will lose and protest and whine his whole life, and he will never recognize the boring style he plays.

Mig, what about the rumors of Bessel Kok taking over the Championship? Does that rumor have any basis behind it at this point? If so, how might that effect Kramnik's position regarding Unification?

And long live Boris!

You are right, Sofia is a joke. But a beautiful city.

Marca your comments are obviously heart felt but a little extreme. Do you think Kirsan was biased against Topalov? Really? Toppy supported his re-election as FIDE president and Kirsan gave a favourable ruling on closing the toilets for game 5. Surely the toughest problem for Topalov was going 2 - 0 down with 8 games left not some dark Kremlin conspiracy. Sure Kalmykia is ultimately a province of russia but it would probably suit Kirsan to have Toppy as FIDE Champ rather than Kramnik although perhaps he is not too bothered either way.

One positive note fom these 11 games I think they produced some really interesting fascinating chess even though they were tightly focussed in similar type structures (or perhaps because of this.

I think that Kramnik as the previous games between them showed is a difficult opponent for Topalov. Garry Kasparov talked before the match about the deeper chess understanding of Kramnik versus the dynamism of Topalov seeing things as pretty balanced despite. Topalov's grading advantage. I think this has been partially brought out by the games. Topalov showed some style and Kramnik tremendous resilience.

Presumably the forfeit does not count for grading purposes and Kramnik must have gained quite a few grading points from this match.

Mig: "Crybaby players, incompetent and corrupt officials, smartass bloggers ..."

You left out 'know-it-all' journalists too....

"...I don't really see him following along with the logic the next WCC Tournament will actually be for the title "World Champion". I think he likes the match format and the history involved in that, so I really don't see him going along with the new arbitrary challengers and round-robin tournaments for the title."

Why do you think Kramnik has any say in if he goes 'along' or not? If he does not 'go along' with what FIDE has decided the Championship Cycle and qualification process is, then he is simply stripped of his title and sanctioned by FIDE.

Grow some balls. I'm for Kramnik all the way but it is Chess Death to any unified champion to try and go it alone.

Ask Kasparov. Worked out really well for him. Gave up chess for politics?....pleeeeaaasssseeee.

If Topalov wins the tiebreaks (should they be called losebreaks, because Topalov lost?), it is really going to be something.

Like so many other people I wanted Kramnik to quit after (non)game 5, and then I wanted him to beat Topalov. But now I think it wouldn't be so bad if Topalov won the tiebreaks tomorrow. Kramnik will still claim he is the classical champion (and in all likelyhood, he will have a court ruling in his favor, too), and Topalov will remain the FIDE champion. So the classical title, that is, the title that really matters, will not be transfered to FIDE afterall. Which is a good thing, because FIDE would likely just destroy the classical/match tradition.

Of course, if Kramnik won, but then decided to split with FIDE anyway would also be a good scenario.

Andy,
Very right points. I am emotional, yes, but so was the media attack against Topalov. A pseudo letter signed by PCA and Russians... please.
About Kirsan I can say that he was away. And he was right asying, "Please, respect the decision of the appeals committee" Kramnik sat down, locked the toilet and cried for Zhukov to come arrange the situation. NOt only Zhukov came, but the director of the match Deep Fritz against Kramnik.
Kramnik is a difficult oponent not only for Topalov but for everybody. He plays positional chess, and that is boring. It has no way to develop more, it is a closed street. All the excitement that you mention is provoked by the novelties of Topalov. Did Kramnik have 1? hm...
And a point that I always make. Topalov is a very very nice person. He never says no to signing a hat or giving an interview. That is the reason he started so bad in Morelia. He was at press conferences 10 hours a day.

match over ,kramnik 6-topalov 5
vladimer kramnik is the world champion
if topalov win that rapid tiebreak no one will consider him wc
end of story

Kramnik is a very nice person too. I was at this tournament, and I didn't know what time it was; so Kramnik was standing next to me, I asked the time and he told me.

I love the way those, who try to argue Topalov is in the right, can't help but throw out the "Kramnik plays borign chess" argument. Give it up guys, he is down 6-5 after 11 games played.

I like Russianbear's "loserbreaks" comment. By doing this FIDE is certainly trying to give breaks to the loser.

yeah topalov is a nice person accepting a free point by cheating and saying his manegar did very well by giving him that free boint what a great person he is
i hope the organizars start baning him just as shmidet said

I hate using rapids for tie breaks in classical chess. If we have to have a quick winner, I would favor skipping the rapids and blitz and going straight to a modified armageddon: Give white the standard time control and give black with draw odds to whichever player is willing to accept the least time.

Mark

I do not think its a simple as you say - Kramnik has been recognised (not by FIDE) as classical world Chess Champion since 2000. During that time FIDE had various world champions by virtue of them winning FIDE's annual world championship knockout tournament. They were the FIDE "world champions" a different one each year but Kramnik remained in most peoples eyes (whatever that means) the World Chess Champion. People may dislike his style regard his play as boring etc but whatever happens tomorrow he remains the man to beat.

So I think everyone knows whatever happens Kramnik
will not regard a tournament as determining the world chess champion. How can FIDE sanction him or strip him of the title?

Anyway I think there will be great interest in a Kramnik-Topalov rematch. Heres to more chess!

People that say score is 6-5 are either blind or totally ignorant at simple law... Kramnik made the mistake not to play, he should be happy they did not kick him out of the whole tournament.
"Zhukooov, I want my point", says Kramnik
"We are in a process of manipulations, you will have it back", answers Zhukov
Very probable conversation, but law will prevail.
Go Topa!

marca,

Positional chess is 'boring' only to those who do not understand the finer points of it, and I don't pretend to understand the finer points of positional chess, but I would not call it boring because of that. I would call it beyond my understanding. Mystifying, at worst.

Please don't sound like the various ICC/Playchess parrots complaining that Kramnik is a boring player. It's hard to imagine his opponents whom he defeated complaining that he 'bored them to a loss with his boring positional chess'. His style has merit as defender of the Classical World Chess Championship.

One could say that Topalov's style is very Tal-like. Perhaps his reign would be as short - 1 cycle. Botvinnik's reign (1948 - 1963, Tal and Smyslov - interrupted), a strict positional player, cannot be considered a 'boring' player either because of his style.

Agree with RB. I'd like to add:

=> the rapid etc portion of the match is worth much less then the classical portion

=> although I hope that Kramnik wins the rapid etc portion of the match, I almost wish Topalov gets this rapid etc portion, because that would reinforce a continued split of the chess world.

After seeing what happpened since game 5, I am convinced that it is better for the chess world to be split with FIDE holding only a part of the split.

Or to say it the other way around, I am convinced that it would be a disaster for chess if FIDE gains control over a unified chess world.

for me the match is over and kramnik is the wc

Mark,
It is not the positional chess only, Kramnik never brought a novelty these games, while Topalov had at least 8. Kramnik never fought to win, while Topalov always did (game 3 he fought for a draw, but he was in a bad position)
That is what I am talking about.

Am I the only one who is sick of reading marca's stupid posts?

Agreed, his "Topalov is a very very nice person. He never says no to signing a hat" was funny, but most of the time I just can't stand the guy.

Listening to Kramnik fans stubbornly cling to this WC title makes me wonder:

If this were 1979, would these same fans still stubbornly cling to the idea that Fischer is the only true champion.

Its worth pointing out that there is still a way for unification. If Kramnik wins the tiebreaks there is no way Topalov can say that he is still WC, especially because of the game 5 debacle.

If Topalov wins, Kramnik CAN justifiably claim to be WC because of game 5.

For the sake of unification, let us hope Kramnik wins.

skeptic?????
Thank you for the nice comment, but I was not talking to you;)

Yah, didn't mean to say "no-lose" as if it were a great situation for Kramnik. I just meant the drama was cut since the possible number of conclusive outcomes was cut in half. But I don't think Topalov has much to complain about should he lose tomorrow. Well, of course he'll complain about something, but I don't think there's much room for scandal. The problem will come if and when Kramnik says 1) he won't play in Mexico and 2) he's still the world champion anyway.

yeah iam bored of marca too
ok topalov played the fantastic novelty and he played that fantastic chess from marsh, BUT STILL HE LOST THE MATCH 6-5 AND HE TRIED TO USE DIRTY TRIKS SO HE IS A LOSER THE TOPALOV FANS FELLS THAT THEY R LOST THATS WHY THEY TRY TO HIDE BEHIND THIS BORING CHESS ,NOELTIES ... BLAH...BLAH CRAP
BUT THR TRUTH REMAINS U LOST GET OVER IT

Marca,
What media attack against Topalov? He made silly accusations, he launched a media attack in Bulgarian mass media, and continues it till today!
Letters signed by PCA and Russians are real. Letter signed by Bulgarian GMs is a fake.
Topalov can say "Please, break the contract signed with Kramnik, or I will go away", Kirsan can lock Kramnik's bathroom, say "please, respect sill yand illegal decisions made by my puppets", and Kramnik can't say "please, respect the signed contract or I go away"?
Why organizers of Topalov-Radjabov match can come, but Fritz ones can't?
Why President and Prime-Minister of Bulgaria can voice their support to Topalov, and Zhukov, a President of Russian Chess Federation, can't?

At least now you opened my eyes. May be, Topalov is so nice person, that he never says no to any BS proposed by his manager. But this is his problem, and he made his choice.

NEXT PRESS RELASE FROM TOPALOV AND HIS FANS
"I am the better player. Blunders don't count." Topalov FAN CLUB

I don't think there is a single fan or journalist who wanted this match to go down like this. As a couple of people have pointed out both Kramnik and Topalov are great to meet personally and good with fans and journalists alike. I'm certainly very surprised at how this controversy developed. It never occurred to me there would be problems, everyone is so professional these days and relations between the top players is generally good. Maybe its the vacuum, many of Kasparov's rivals disliked or even detested him. He's gone as number one so a fight has to start somewhere else. Kasparov as lightening rod....

I'm not a fan of open letters signed by a bunch of Grandmasters in a situation like this. I don't think they help at all.

It incredibly difficult to report on such a match as a journalist. You're embarrassed for the sport and you want the controversy to go away. In the end you try and report what both sides are saying and then you maybe come to some sort of view. It took me a week to make my mind up about the actual default. But my opinions are just my opinions and not of any importance at all. But I think you're duty bound to write what you feel is right even if it upsets people.

Andy,

I do not believe you understand what playing in and winning this match means. The winner is considered the unified champion, under FIDE. If Kramnik wins, as is the focus of this conversation, then he is the unified champion, under FIDE. Therefore, he is the FIDE World Chess Champion.

Period.

Given that, the loser, Topalov, is left out of the next cycle, and therefore, cannot contend to challenge for a rematch.

Also, the *way* they get a challenger would be really immaterial to Kramnik, being the defending champion. HE HAS NO SAY IN IT. I'm sure he would prefer a tournament winner to a series of candidates matches to choose a challenger. The candidates matches definitely toughen the player up for the real deal when he gets to Kramnik. A tournament winner would hardly have that kind of experience behind him. Ask Topalov.

If Topalov 'wins' (hard to say that with a straight face, mind you), all this unification stuff is still cloudy because of the unprofessional antics of Danailov and Co., the Appeals Committee, KI, etc., and we are in as big a mess as before.

Chess WANTS Kramnik to win, needs him to win, if for no other reason than to reconsolidate Professional Chess.

A Topalov victory is the proverbial 'Fly in the Ointment'.

A Topalov Victory, mind you, has him *already* going outside of FIDE to organize another WCC match against Radjabov.

I think that is unbelievable.

Kramnik has played plenty of brilliant combinations.

Perhaps fewer than Topolov. So what? Even the most brilliant combinational artists win brilliantly on relatively rare occasions.

Vlad
"Bulgarian mass media", the mass part saounds fun:) Russian is mass, but Bulgarian.....
Even on Topalov's site is not posted the letter by the Bulgarian GMs.....
And Bulgarian policts interviened after round 9?????
Well, Topa really has strong political support.

Mimo,
The next press release sounds about right:) I agree Topalov's press releases are a bit harsh.

Kramnik has played plenty of brilliant combinations.

Perhaps fewer than Topolov. So what? Even the most brilliant combinational artists win brilliantly on relatively rare occasions.

--Posted by: Andrew B at October 12, 2006 15:58

Brilliant combinations do not really matter. All you have to do is win. And Topalov pretty much screwed up this match by blowing the first two games. But that's all you have to do. If Topalov makes fatal mistakes and Kramnik does not, then Kramnik does not have to show brilliancy to win.

Its true that as far as novelties are concerned it seemed all Toppy. More than this Toppy stayed one step ahead in determining the field of battle. Perhaps Kram ada some novelties against 1e4 but Toppy never went there and Kram did not want to go against Toppy's sicilian.

Interestingly Toppy as white did not go in for some of the more aggressive d4 lines. However if you take a look at the Kramnik - Leko match Kramnik went on the offensive for a series of games as Leko tried to draw his way to victory. I think Toppy would have beaten any other player in the world in a 12 game match - except Kramnik.

I think we should not judge either guy harshly everything happened in the heat of battle that goes for their managers too. FIDE did not provide a sufficiently stble framework - but I think the chess was great.

Marca, you are out of oyour mind, "constant media atack on Topalov"...!

Just know this that it was unethical and poor behavious by Topalov team which actually converted a lot of Topalov fans (non-Bulgarians, of course) into Kramnik supporters (I am avoiding the word "fans" here). I was one of the Topalov supporter and a fan before this match began and I was simultaneously one of the harshest critic of Kramnik's behaviour since he started avoiding Kaspy (a match with Kasparov would give his title a validity any day as compared to any Leko and others).

Open your eyes and see that a majority of chess followers don't support Topa's behaviour in Elista Match. Psychological attacks are part of professional sport but that does not mean that you have compulsorily use them!

Somebody who keeps talking about "I got better positions"..."I played better"... "I have a higher rating"..."He never adhered to any priniciples"... should prove it on the chessboard rather than relying on off-the-board tactics. Such methods are for the weak and one who lacks confidence. If a "self-acclaimed stronger player" has to rely on "free point" to become a World Champion" than there is definitley something missing in your understanding of principles and logic.

-Amit

Mark C: as you probably will agree most people see the main problem with FIDE, not with team Kramnik or team Topalov. That is to say, Danailov got a whole lot more than he bargained for when he started his machinations because of the mistakes that FIDE made.

If you read Schmitt's interview in the full German version, he was furious to the extreme, and it is a very clear inference IMHO that that is so because these mistakes of FIDE, which gave horrendous effect to Danailov's machinations, may kill his own tournament.

So yes, it is indeed embarrassing to say the least, but that's how things are with FIDE since long, although that's a trivial thing to say.

Ok Mark

I guess I misunderstood the Fide tournament point. I was thinking that the winner of this match (undisputed Fide World Chess Champion) would have to play in a tournament the outcome of which would determine the next world champion but I see the tournament determines the challenger who then plays a MATCH with the FIDE WCC. Ok yep. In practice however I think there is some balance of power between Fide and the prevailing WCC in terms of negotiations over rules etc

But even if Topalov wins I think there is a good chance of a re-match - if the money is there!

Kramnik has not won the match 6-5, the score is 6-5, with Game 5 still unplayed.

Topalov brought more novelties (thanks to Cheparinov and Co.), he determined the game plan in most games. And with all these advantages he still lost! How can he be considered a better chess player?

I should clarify -

A Topalov Victory *under the current circumstances* is the proverbial 'Fly in the Ointment'.

Kramnik will not recognize him. He thinks he is right about Game 5, and you can argue the point in his favor somewhat.

From what I've read (on chessbase, and various other 'media' outlets), most of professional chess finds Topalov's off-board tactics unsavory, and they will probably not recognize him either in private.

'Win at all costs' I guess...

Before the match Topalov had a lot of non-Bulgarian fans, especially in Russia. Constantly watching Russian chess message boards and forums, I can confirm that he have lost 99% of his fans. Almost every message supporting Topalov is written there by easily recognizable Bulgarians, thanks to their specific Russian :-)

Before the match Topalov had a lot of non-Bulgarian fans, especially in Russia. Constantly watching Russian chess message boards and forums, I can confirm that he have lost 99% of his fans. Almost every message supporting Topalov is written there by easily recognizable Bulgarians, thanks to their specific Russian :-)

Mark Crowther: "It's incredibly difficult to report on such a match as a journalist."

During the match I had the honour of writing 4-5 articles to various papers in my country, trying to explain things as best as I could, reflecting different views but not emphasising my own. Eventually I noticed myself taking up a sort of buddhist-like attitude, writing the articles with the thought that all things are temporary in this world, even this debate, it's just the wheel of samsara momentarily veiling the eternal chess peace... Gave a kind of tranquil and wise colour to my writings :)

Ohhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

Mig,
its shameful that you introduced the word 'jihadis' to your blog as a term of opprobrium.

Kramnik agreed to the rules, including FIDE appeals committees etc., before the match. Off the board shenanigans in WC contests is nothing new and actually standard, unfortunately. (Topolov should fire his manager anyway.) It would be totally hypocritical for Kramnik not to acknowledge Topolov as the new WC. Remember Kramnik avoided a remath with Kasparov???

The most interesting thing is that Mig is biased against both players. He should have a poll: is he biased against Kramnik, Topolov, both, other?

Kramnik agreed to the rules, including FIDE appeals committees etc., before the match. Off the board shenanigans in WC contests is nothing new and actually standard, unfortunately. (Topolov should fire his manager anyway.) It would be totally hypocritical for Kramnik not to acknowledge Topolov as the new WC. Remember Kramnik avoided a remath with Kasparov???

The most interesting thing is that Mig is biased against both players. He should have a poll: is he biased against Kramnik, Topolov, both, other?

... The problem will come if and when Kramnik says 1) he won't play in Mexico and 2) he's still the world champion anyway.

-- Posted by: Mig at October 12, 2006 15:50

You can bet on at least one of those two things happening.

No way Kramnik is playing in Mexico City of he wins the match.

Paul,
Where did you find opprobrium in Mig's words?
Topalov supporters believe he is right, and go fight for him to the end. Kramnik's supporters do the same. The word 'jihad' describes this situation closely, as word 'crusade' does.

P,
Kramnik agreed to the rules, but FIDE agreed to follow contract. FIDE broke first.

susan is always biased and tries to deny it, chessbase biased some times and also denies it, mig seems most of the times be neutral and pro chess, and doesnt comment on being biased, which is best sign of being neutral

thats my perception

Vlad, not only did Topalov bring more novelties, he would have had tremedous experience with the resulting positions because of work with computer programs.

Maybe his disbelief that Kramnik could 'solve' the positions at the board while he needed lots of home prep with comps led him to believe Kramnik was cheating. After all, if Topalov with his 2800 rating needed help, wouldn't Vlad with his paltry 2740? Perhaps Topalov can't accept that he has been out-classed at the board.

Ellrond,

You are biased and didn't admit it.

So what's your point: that human's are biased?

So I guess Vlad Kosulin has actually seen the contract? I doubt so...

I'm biased against stray apostrophes.

I just talked with Garry and he was really shocked to find out that it's four 25'+10" games, not two and then two more if necessary. That's a really rough day at the office. I hadn't really thought about it. The old FIDE KO's had the insanity of playing the tiebreaks on the same day as the second game. But these rapid games are usually over an hour each and with incredible tension since you're basically in time trouble from the start. Kasparov thinks this really hurts Kramnik's chances since Topalov always shows such stamina.

to aa: I have several times taken open positon for Kramnik and stay so. In the start of the event my feelings were with Topa like so many other. I am avarage in this point, I feel like the most feel, to my knowlegde.

Its nothing wrong with being biased, its normal. I dont like "hidden agendas" and try to expose them when I see someone hiding it like Susan does.

Mig surely has a personal view. He does a great job as a journalist and commentator, keeping it outdoor and being personal the same time.

YOu folks - Vlad Kosulin and Icepick -talk as if Kramnik didn't have any seconds. You people are so full of sh*t in your bias towards Kramnik and prejudice against Topalov.

Hey Mig:

Kramnik agreed to the terms of the match. He must have known beforehand that the rapid tiebreaks were 4 +2 +1 games. If he signed it , it implies that he doesn't anticipate any problems. Maybe, he anticipated that he wouldn't need the rapid games.

Just elaborating on a point already made several times by others, here and elsewhere: FIDE sanctioning unproven cheating alegations brings this match between 2 players into a turmoil.

Having set this precedence, how about organizing a tournament of 1000 players? (Corus, Mainz, etc) It becomes simply an impossible task. It already becomes dubious at a smaller 10 player event with only 1 TD/arbiter, IMHO.

Vlad,
I refer specifically to this post:
"The best indicator is that in the space of two days it's gone from the Topalov fans telling me I'm obviously biased in favor of Kramnik to the jihadis on the other side telling me I hate Kramnik. Love that interweb"

In a previous message, Mig used the word 'jihad' in a way that could be used (in the vernacular) interchangeably with ‘crusade’ . Properly understood, these notions (crusade and jihad) have little in common, since ‘crusade’ has no practical significance in the lives of Christians, while jihad has enormous significance for Muslims, signifying a sincere and noticeable effort for true and unselfish striving towards spiritual good.

‘Jihadi’, on the other hand, has entered the English language only recently, and connotes ‘extremist’. It is a term that veils potential or actual prejudice against Muslims.

Unless you think I was calling these people Muslims, and I'm sure you don't think that, you should realize that I was employing its now common usage as, "vigorous, emotional crusade for an idea or principle" quoth Webster. In this case, the idea that one of the players is a saint. I mean, a martyr. I mean...

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jihad

Mig,
its not your use of the word 'jihad' that I complain about, as my message makes clear. It is the term 'jihadis', which is journalese for Muslim extremist.

I don't get it. Topalov lost/drew in chess by the normal scoring system with all the dirty tricks and everything notwithstanding. Now Topalov fans are resorting to scoring by the number of opening novelties.... Maybe Clint Ballard should have a look... One thing I would say though is that there is something to what they are saying. If there were a rematch with Topalov being able to withstand the heat better, the money is on him, unless Kramnik works harder on his repetoire. But I don't remember Kramnik ever being that worried about specific novelties or playing a big novelty. I would be curious to hear him speak about his approach to the opening.

Hey Dirtbag, we didn't say Kramnik had no seconds. But all of you Topalov jihadis keep talking about Veselin's novelties. Well, if they were novelties, then perhaps, just maybe, Topalov had Kramnik out of Vlad's preparation. Or is that too long a train of logic for you to follow?

If you think Topalov is a good rapid player, you are wrong, Mig. ;);)

>>
If this were 1979, would these same fans still stubbornly cling to the idea that Fischer is the only true champion.
>>

Uh, no. Fischer made it very easy for us by resigning his title in writing. Anyone who considered him to hold the title after resigning it was just being irrational.

Kramnik didn't resign, he beat his opponent 6-5. See the difference?

Of course this match has to end with the Armagedon game. What could be more appropriate?

I predict that either:

1) Mad time scramble at the end. Kramnik will have a completely winning position, with mate in 1 or 2, and he will lose on time.

2) Kramnik will mistakenly offer a draw with white and lose the match.

3) Topalov will have white, position will be a dead draw, but black will lose on time. (Can the arbiter declare a draw if the position is a dead draw? How dead? What if neither side has enough material to mate? We need answers!)

Actually, Graeme, the answer to the question is that a heck of a lot of people DID "stubbornly cling to the idea the Fischer is the only true champion", including the U.S. Congress which passed a resolution to that effect, regardless of his written resignation.

So I don't think your answer works, and I don't think the original rhetorical question to which you were responding works either :-)

The Russian mafia should interview Toiletalov after the match and get to the bottom of these shenanigans.

LOL!

thankyou to paul dearey for the most ridiculous post of the week. and that's saying something!

Hey Icepick:

Maybe , you will never understand . But you were talking about Topalov's novelties. Maybe, Kramnik's team was not good enough to produce any novelties . LOL.

"Topalov had Kramnik out of Vlad's preparation." - quote by icepick . That train of logic is indeed too long for me to follow.

Mig, let's err on the side of lenience and assume that aa comes for a country (e.g. The Netherlands) where that strange apostrophe is regularly used to form plurals.
It would be a nice start if we could explain the difference between "lose" and "loose". But it can't be done. (I won't even start on "begging the question".)

Oh, and I think Kramnik will manage to win tomorrow, unless he is completely fatigued. 2.5-1.5 in the rapid games. Fewer blunders should do it.

13 hours to the games on Friday the 13th.

I predict we will see something in the news very soon, having to do with a formal request of team Kramnik to actually play game 5 over the board and FIDE rejecting the request.

Of course team Kramnik knows that, but I guess they need to formally file that request to memorialize and set up their legal argument.

If twelve classical games produced a 6-6 deadlock and you had one more day available, what would be the best way to determine a champion?

Greg, my idea would be one I've proposed before: a time-odds classical-TC Armageddon game with color auction. What?! you say. It would work like this: you play a single game at the regular TC, but black has draw odds and plays at a discounted fraction of white's time. What fraction? Well, the players bid on it. If player A says "I'll take Black's draw odds at 80% of white's time" and player B says "I'll bid 70%" then B gets black.

"If twelve classical games produced a 6-6 deadlock and you had one more day available, what would be the best way to determine a champion?"

Always said it, naked mud wrestling, its the way to go.

petrel, good idea man!

Kramnik takes the 4-game rapid match 2.5-1.5. You heard it here first.

[prepares to be royally embarrassed tomorrow]

Not to be...um...cynical, but we did hear it here first. From Charles Milton Ling above.

Charles Milton Ling: yes, "beg the question" is usually used incorrectly, if you adhere to the classical philosophical meaning of the phrase. However, the colloquial meaning is used so often that it's often recognized as legitimate as well.

"the classical philosophical meaning"? come on, get off your pompous high horse and talk with us clear down here about chess.

Are you even aware of the classical meaning of the phrase? It indeed has to do with philosophy/rhetoric.

Yeah, um, anyway, I hope that Topalov comes with lots of energy tomorrow like he did for games one and two. Not that the outcome was any good, but with the different time controls the "balls to the wall" (with a classical figurative aviation meaning) may pay some dividends (this has a classic financial meaning, though not in this context). I think we will see more chess like games 8-12 with a 2:2 outcome. I just hope that Kramnik shows for all of them.

I'll take that as a "no."

I think the comments about Kramnik winning 6-5 or replaying the 5th game are rubbish for the simple reason that Topalov played game 6 under the assumption that he had that extra point. You cant suddenly retrospectively change that because Topalov's entire match strategy has been based on it, that is why I think any Court would be very reluctant to overrule the forfeit. If you do overrule the forfeit you also have to play all the games again so that Topalov can have a match strategy which accounts for the actual score.

I think the comments about Kramnik winning 6-5 or replaying the 5th game are rubbish for the simple reason that Topalov played game 6 under the assumption that he had that extra point. You cant suddenly retrospectively change that because Topalov's entire match strategy has been based on it, that is why I think any Court would be very reluctant to overrule the forfeit. If you do overrule the forfeit you also have to play all the games again so that Topalov can have a match strategy which accounts for the actual score.

If Mark Crowther's idea for a tiebreak doesn't fly for some strange reason, then I think the next-best solution is to already have tiebreak rules in place, and announced prior to the match, so the players knew coming into the end of the match who would win in case of a tie. Like in the candidates' matches they used to have "most wins with Black", or "most recent win", or something like that. Of course, "most wins with Black" doesn't necessarily break the tie, and "most recent win" has a bias toward the player who has White last. Maybe something like "most wins with Black", and if they're the same then you have a lottery where you pull a game # out of a hat, before the match starts, and let's say it was game #7 then that means if you won game #7 then you win the tiebreak, if not then it's whoever won the second game # you drew, and so on. I thought that was great at San Luis to have unbiased tiebreaker rules already in place - if you read my tournament preview then you know it was extremely unlikely to go to a rapid tiebreak. Even if it seems random and arbitrary, it really isn't, because the players know going in what the rules will be, and can plan their strategy accordingly as the match progresses.

A Modest Proposal:

Shoot'em both as an object lesson to future WCC participants. Should cut down on complaints.

Prabhat
I agree with your logic but that cuts both ways. Neither side knew or knows how the court will rule. That is the problem with playing any games under protest. That is why its a problem to change the agreement hours before a game and then start the clocks before the issue gets sorted out. Starting the clocks was just stupid.

In the end though Kramnik 6 Topalov 5 after 11 games played, is just a fact. The imporance of that fact in your opinion of who is rightfully champion is up to you.

All chess players of the world unite and pray Kramnik wins unless you want two WCC's again.

If Kramnik wins he'll go schizophrenic so half of him will be classical champion and half FIDE champion. He will then play in Mexico City, win, and challenge himself to a unification match. He will win, but then deny himself a rematch.

If Kramnik loses, in the classical sense he will still be "classical champion" since he was not actually beaten in the match. 6-5 or 6-6 all the same, in the old times this would have ment the king lives.

I'm sure it's already been pointed out, so, once again, Bobby Fischer, not Spassky, was the last undisputed world champion.

Am I reading right?

Unification! We need it so much to be professional again!

And now it seems that many posters would love to see the split going on.

Maybe thats because they would lose their proud of beeing the one who really know and have the real right to declare who the "true" champion is...

Strange things are happening. The internet posting makes people rather writing than thinking.

And I alsways thought chess were a thinking sport.

Mig, that´s multiple personality disorder, not schizophrenia.

On another note, when Magnus Carlsen becomes a WC challenger, will silly things like these happen again?! Time will tell...

Heheh, Fischer, undisputed world champion? He still thinks he's champion and I, for one, dispute that.

Okay, how about dissociative identity disorder?

How about Very Likable Attitude Disorder? We could call it VLAD.

C'mon, where is everyone? Is nobody else staying up to see this to the bitter end? Is it just that everything that could possibly be said, has been said already?

If Kramnik loses the tie breaks he may well be the strongest player never to become World Champion.

I personally think the Game 5 forfeit was totally unfair. The grave error however was continuing the match "under protest" with the result to be challenged in Court if Kramnik doesnt win. If one chooses to be cynical, one can view this as a very smart business decision a) He wins the hearts of many fans(myself included) b) If he wins he is a mega-hero. c) If he loses he will go to court and even if he loses there, he will still claim to be champion and there are more than enough people who will accept his claim.Thereby nothing solved. From Topalov's perspective can you imagine how difficult it is to try and play keeping in mind both the official and an imaginary scoreline. And since Kramnik is playing (but under protest, and since Topalov himself cannot object to the FIDE ruling) he has no choice but to play under the basis that the forfeit stands. Allow me to clarify that I dont approve of Topalov's actions or behavior. My point is simply that it is inaccurate to call the score "morally" 6-5 because merely removing the forfeited game from the "moral" scoreboard is no solution because the rest of the games were played with the forfeited score in mind.

Come on Mig

From 1972 to at least his resignation Bobby Fischer was the undisputed champion. No one else disputed it.

now when Karpov took the title in 1975 without beating Fischer, then some people disputed that Krapov was the Champion. so Karpov became a disputed champion.

You know all this. so dont make a mockery of Fischer. the guy has a mental disorder. If you want to make fun of mentally ill people go to a sanatarium. it will be full of people you can make fun of.

You try to think logically through all these present problems and then you abandon all logic with Fischer. not appropriate.

Here's to Boris Spassky, the last completely undisputed world champion. He managed to get in and out without once ever having to say the words, "I'm the real world champion."

Mig is completely clear in this- Spassky is the last one to have a universally recognised start date and a universally recognised end date for being world champion. Saying that why some people don't recognise that Fischer lost his title in 1975 is beyond me...

I didn't say, "undisputed for a certain period." Start to finish was the point. Many still considered Fischer champion after 1975, not just him. It was a broad controversy. There were also many talks about a match between Fischer and Karpov. Negotiations, declarations, you might even call it a dispute.

What does this have to do with Fischer's mental problems? He considered himself champion in 1976, and so did many others. He considers himself champion in 2006, others not so much. He's still undefeated, so by the rationale of 1976 he's just as much a champion now.

But why would it mean abandoning logic to discuss Fischer's mental problems? It's not a free ride, even if you are, clearly, a clinical psychiatrist with a deep understanding of Fischer's case and state.

There is some truth in this notion that novelties are the sign of a true world champion. All the greats – Kasparov, Kramnik during the nineties – have been enormously influential in their opening choices and in introducing not new moves, but whole new systems. Botvinnik of course would tell us this is essential.

The sad thing is that Topalov is truly playing great chess and acting as a world champion should on the board, but unfortunately cheating like a bastard off it. Indeed he’s never cut a very appealing figure off it. If only he’d grow up.

Mark C said:
"I don't think there is a single fan or journalist who wanted this match to go down like this. ... everyone is so professional these days ... It incredibly difficult to report on such a match as a journalist. You're embarrassed for the sport and you want the controversy to go away. In the end you try and report what both sides are saying and then you maybe come to some sort of view."

Mark I'm amazed to hear you (and Mig, too) saying these kinds of things - especially since you both are known and admired for placing things in their historical perspective. Shame on you for not anticipating these catfights, given the reality of chess, chess personalities and chess history!

I don't know of a single chess match that went down in a dignified way (oh okay, maybe those in St Johns, Canada, way back when?) There is always back alley wrestling, gross insults and recriminations, petulant ego-filled players, etc. You know this!

Maybe there was a day when someone could say, "You two behave, or go to the gulag!" But before that time and since that time, chess matches always seem to swim below the eel's belly. Chess history is filled with "he never game me a rematch", "put his brother in jail", "blew smoke in my face", "his king's too big", etc. etc. on and on! Please don't be a (pretend) naive chess journalist!

In my experience, the local level is always bad, too. Is it like that in jolly ol' E? Because here in the USA, underneath the USCF (how can you get lower?) each state organization is a complete mess of fighting, scrapping, howling officials, same as on the other levels. Hmmm, maybe it is something about chess - not all players are like this, but chess does attract a disproportionate number of argumentative, disputatious, thin-skinned, big-mouthed numbskulls, who ruin it for everyone else. Maybe lawyering is similar.

After hearing Nigel, and reading Kamsky's response in these pages, I had a long think. Do we, the fans, demand of our elite chessplayers that they fight so hard, that fifteen years later they still have major unresolved psychological wounds? Do chessplayers demand of themselves, at that high level, that every slight (He coughed spittle on the board! He made eye contact with someone on his way to the bathroom) no matter how slight, no matter how normal or human, is taken as a paranoid's stab with a stilleto? (Of course I couldn't play for a win after that!)

Look, this sometimes ugly, sometimes noble activity of chess is just like life, in all its messy glory. You journalists cannot pretend to be so naive!

Both of you, Mig and MC - I've been reading since your pre-teen issue numbers - keep up the good work! I enjoy and respect your work immensely. tja

I expected tension and spats, I didn't expect it to get as ugly as it did. Recent matches have gone off relatively well without incident. But you're right, look to your chess history and you see they can get bitter.

As a Topalov fan, I give my congratulations to the worthy winner Vladimir Kramnik!

Topalov was a great champ, taking on all challenges! But Kramnik is the man now and all Topalov fans, we should accept this new reality!

I hope Mexico proves to be so exciting as well!

How is it we always manage to screw these things up so badly? Really, it's more embarrassing than all the toilet jokes. Crybaby players, incompetent and corrupt officials, smartass bloggers (who, according to the comments, are biased against both players), it's a mess of a world. Here's to Boris Spassky, the last completely undisputed world champion. He managed to get in and out without once ever having to say the words, "I'm the real world champion."
===========

There wasn't any dispute about Fischer as World Champion. The 1972 Match was controversial, but the Soviets never disputed the end results. Recall that Fischer won with +7 -3 (including that forfeit loss in Game 2).

Topalov screwed things up by:
First, Overpressing in the first two games.
Second, Losing the first two games.
Third, Not taking defeat like a man.

Ironically, as the results of Games 8 & 9 showed, Kramnik's 2 Game lead was only out of reach if one had given up hope.

Topalov lost confidence in his own chess abilities.

It is clear that Kramnik outplayed Topalov at the Board, although that is not saying much, given the low level of Topalov's play. However, Kramnik truly excelled in the machinations away from the Board.

Kramnik calulated that the Unified FIDE title itself was not all that valuable. It was more important to gain the sympathies of the Worldwide Chess community. Mission accomplished! Kirsan has succeeded in devaluing the WC title. After all, the winner was only to be granted a spot in the 8 player tournament, and would have to defend his title in 2007. Kramnik shrewdly realized that if he became a Martyr for Principle, that he could regain the support of chess fans, who otherwise thought him to be diffident, bland, and boring.

The fact that he won the match itself is mere icing on the cake.

Curses! DOug has exposed my evil plan to the harsh light of justice! Yes, it's true: my real objective was never the piddling World Championship -- it was the love and approval of the all-powerful Worldwide Chess Community that I wanted!

Now that the chess championship match between Grandmasters Kramnik and Topalov is over having GM Kramnik as the new Chess King of the world, it appears that the east has dominated again the arena of chess. I believe chess has dominated mostly the east in particular since there are over 200 million strong chess players there. For my part if I have the time I usually play post-mortem analysis of chess games and it's like playing Mozart's D Minor with extra ordinary wits and talents displayed by the world chess grandmasters. It was also quite surpricing upon browsing the internets that the FIDE has voluminous officialy registered GMs and IMs but sad to say they are hardly known and written in the internets or newspapers. I am wondering if chess held around the globe has a wide array of publicity and recognition as it used to be like during the times of the legendary Bobby Fischer, Anotoly Karpov and greatest chess player that the world has ever seen and produced in the person of Gary kasparov. With the brilliancy of GM Kasparov I believe the chess world has suffered a lot when he opted to retire too early too soon. The world is still expecting him to play chess with precission and strategy. I for one has replayed his chess games for the nth times. Sad to say no one as far as I am concerned could could equal the tenacity of GM Kasparov. He is like a chess warrior with all the electronic memory, circuits and bytes attached to his body sans the U.S. World Chess Champion Bobby Fischer who is also said to be best chess player of world during his times. I am hoping GM Kasparov will return to play chess. He is a big loss to the chess world. Chess today lacks the luster and glamor as how GM Kasparov displays, I am yearning that GM kasparov will reconsider his decision to retire so early so that we can still see some of his chess games before entering the middle part of the third millenium.

"I am yearning that GM Kasparov will reconsider his decision to retire so early so that we can still see some of his chess games before entering the middle part of the third millenium."

Dr. Abella, what kind of yogurt are Garry and you eating that you expect him to be playing chess, and you to be watching his games for another 300-plus years?

Mr. Greg Koster I may sound to be eating yogurt but when I said that I am hoping GM Kasparov will be playing more chess before we enter the middle part of the third millenium it's just an idiomatic expression. You must realized that the even World Chess Organizations could not even come up with a challenger to GM Kasparov before he was dethroned by GM Kramnik. But even Kramnik belongs to the east, I think in the game of chess the west aside from GM Bobby Fischer are all cheap chess players including you, Mr. Koster who insults GM Kasparov who has defeated almost all of the chessplayers in the west. I think you are just sour graping simply because you are nuts in the game chess.

Doc,

Thank you for your prompt reply.

As a proud Filippino, you're entitled to take pride in Paul Truong, Florencio Campomanes, and Imelda Marcos' shoe collection.

But taking credit for Kasparov and Kramnik seems a bit of a stretch.

Another example of Greg Koster's meticulous research. Paul Truong is from Vietnam not from the Philippines.

Dirtbag,

Thanks for the correction and for the encouragement.

I think you can also be proup Mr. Koster of Richard Nixon, Bill Clinton - sex rapist and Cpl. Smith convicted rapist in our country. I do not intend in a single iota to have a credit on the achievements of GMs Kramnik and Kasparov but simply commenting because there is portal for me to make a comment and that it you nuts.

I think making comments on another comments is taboo and unethical, I am making comments in good faith on certain chess players without malice and bad intents but for someone to be putting a caricature in my face is quite insulting really. Should that be the case I think surfers must no longer be the right to comment on the portals with due respect to the owner of this blog.

Koster, be careful: It's starting to sound like this "Dr. Abella" guy is setting you up for an unwitting role in the Web version of "Borat."

JJ-

Thanks for the heads up!

I think this portal portray really what a dirt is all about, but it saddens me because the topic we are relating to is chess and for me chess is said to be the game of those who are intellectual and intelligent people. It appears now that there are "honky tonk" guys who just wants to play "honky punnky" in this portal as what this portal would really mean and connote to be daily dirt. It's a pitty for the game of chess because I never thought we have plenty of jokers in this game contrary to the adulated names like Alekhine, Botbinik, Lasker and Topalov that I can personally be proud of - that is only in the game of chess. How about you Mr. Jacobs, you sound to be the chess player inmates at "Alkatraz".

My personal favorite anecdote in "Great Moments in Chess Honky Punnky Vol I" was when Alekhine showed up sozzled to a simul, swung out his junk and mistook a spectator for a urinal mint. Good times.

Dr. Abella,
You seem to be getting the hang of this 'honky tonk' stuff pdq...

LOL Clubfoot!

Pedant and naive!!!!!

Doc,

What started as a simple discussion of whether Kasparov would be playing top-flight chess in the middle third of the third millenium (ca. 2350 A.D.) has gotten seriously off track.

Let's call a truce. Let there be peace between my nation and yours. Let us look around for some smaller country that our proud nations, working together, can invade.

Mr. koster,

Well, I admit I must have committed a mistake, well anyway nobody is perfect except God himself. Same to you from my country and fellow Filipinos. I just hope that the U.S.A. could produce another world chess champion similar to the legendary and enfant terrible, Bobby Fischer. Kudos to all of you there in the west. All expletives are all " don't cry over spilled milk." Let bygones be bygones.

greg,

You've got to be a good sport and send him a postcard (now that you have his address.) I hope you won't wait until 2350 A.D.

Mr. Koster,

Remember I said the word "before" and not "on" I believe that spells the difference. I think the admiration now centers on you because you have the guts to say truce and let there be peace between our two nations, you deserve a big hug big brother.