In Support of Timmaaay!

Topalov's site came with a statement also, is it Topalov himself? I asked that I while ago, but seems to be confusing.

This whole thing is an extortion attempt. Plain and simple. It stank from the first moment they made the big noise about it. I didn’t want to speculate back then, but now it is obvious. A laptop and few disks does not cost that much. It’s not like they accidentally chopped the player’s head off, or something of that magnitude… We in the USA are the leaders in this field – get a good lawyer and you can sue for damages anybody, for any amount. The only question is whether they have money to pay… The rest of the World is catching up quickly.

Sad, because now the organizers will have to buy tons of liability insurance related to the player’s safety. This will not make it more attractive to sponsor events…

D.

Extortion? The guy may have been killed had he came back a little earlier to his hotel room.

People sue tobacco companies and McDonalds for what essentially are their own decisions. I don't see how Radjabov asking for money is any worse - in fact I don't see any harm at all. Not only was there psychological damage done to him, there is also material damage and the guy may have lost his database, which is worth a lot more to him than just a laptop. And I think the fact that Radjabov ended up in that hotel because the hotel was picked by the organizers. Radjabov is the victim here. I think had this happened to Topalov, Dimi, as well as some other regulars would blame the KGB and every single Russian on the face of the earth and we would never hear the end of it. I am totally with Radjabov on this one.

I explained the harm dear RB -- it will make it less attractive to hold tournaments or invite players if the liability issues outweigh the benefits. Don't you think that 100,000 Euro can kill a sponsor, or turn him off forever? Would you invite someone to your house who presents danger as far as suing you over the spilled icecream that made him fall and claim a broken spirit?

D.

Dear dimi,

I don't care about chess sponsors when we are dealing with what could possibly have been a murder of the greatest player of his generation and a likely future world champion. Gee, a great chess player gets into this kind of crappy situation and I am supposed to weep about the 100 000 euro some rich guy DIDN'T even spend? Sorry, I was too busy watching the Microsoft stock and being scared Bill Gates would be a billion poorer.

You guest analogy doesn't really work. So far your guest didn't sue you, but just asked for a little understanding. And what happened was he was invited and then was robbed possibly due to your negligence. The guest is upset, which is understandable. No need to make the guest out to be the bad guy here. Then he asked money for a taxi ride home and you are claiming that what he is doing is extortion. Hmm, something doesn't add up here.

I must agree with Russianbear. Radjabov has done nothing wrong and we cannot fault him for simply `asking` for compensations or leaving the tournament.

Now if this happened to Topalov/Danailov then we could expect some crazy behavior and some cry baby antics.

'taxi ride home' ?? 100K isn't exactly a 'taxi ride home'....

'taxi ride home' ?? 100K isn't exactly a 'taxi ride home'....

and I love that class envy in our post..too bad you view the sponsor as "some rich guy" - I guess all those evil rich guys just don't deserve to have so much money in the first place, right?

'taxi ride home' ?? 100K isn't exactly a 'taxi ride home'....

Posted by: Dude at February 21, 2007 18:13

First of all, 100K isn't confirmed.

And second of all, what happened to Radjabov is not exactly "the spilled icecream", either.

RB, I’m giving you the bottom line here, because I do not have time for much emotional stuff, or philosophy. If playing the liability game becomes a habit amongst chess players, this will _nuke_ the sponsorship. When a laptop costs you 100K Euro a pop, you’ve got a problem and even the insurance companies will have a second thought. We have seen how entire industries have been ruined due to liability concerns.

This has nothing to do with liking or disliking Radjabov – think about the big picture!

D.

P.S. The organizers have to take reasonable precautions to guarantee some level of safety and comfort – it’s not like a beam fell from the ceiling and injured some player. A stolen laptop, even a room robbery, is something that will be very hard to impossible to guard against. These things happen. It will be a very, very dangerous precedent to hold the organizers liable in this case!!

D.

And yes, you caught me. I care more about Radjabov's well being than about the finances of some sponsor I don't know. Weird isn't it, with this being a chess blog and all? There, you have me on record, senator McCarthy.

Accepting the 100K request for the moment, does anyone know what place Radjabov would had to have secured in the tournament to win that amount, assuming that would be possible? I realize this is a hard one to answer, given ties, etc. I also realize that I might be able to find this out on my own online, but am hoping someone else can do it "fairly easily".

hey mig have you asked kasparov whether he wants to be identified as a bakuvian since they nearly killed him there in 1990 and he has on numerous occasions told the press that he would never return ther?

Russianbear,

I really enjoy your posts here but this time your support of Radjabov is clouding your better judgement. More than once you've used the emotional reasoning that "he/they could have been killed." Of course that's possible, but in a court of law that could only be argued as speculation. EVERY hotel that I have stayed in has a disclaimer that the hotel is not responsible for any valuables left in the the room. I'm surprised that an elite player would not want to leave his/her laptop in the hotel safe (while away from the room) or a room safe when provided. At least take it with you, there's a reason it's called a laptop and not desktop. Also, even though the exact amount hasn't been properly disclosed, "taxi ride home" is a little flippant don't you think?

Yes, Radjabov was victimized and that's a shame. Although, on the other hand, with a little precaution on his and/or his fathers part, a great amount of angst could have been prevented. Perhaps this can looked at as a blessing in disguise and more caution will be used in the future; hotel, organizers and participants alike.

Leaveing your laptop lying unattended and unsecured (even in a hotel room) is careless, and I think Radjabov needs to accept some responsibility for what happened. Yes he is entitled to claim the cost of the laptop on the hotel's insurance policy. But asking the organizers to compensate him for his carelessness is a bit too much.

I agree the organizers need to take into account the players safety, but there was no evidence that his safety was ever in danger. The point that if they had returned back earlier they may have been killed is very hypothetical and doesn't deserve any merit. None of the other players feel have commented that they are concerned about there safety! I think that speaks for itself.

Also on the fact that the Police did not investigate. Police probably have limited resources that would be better spent elsewhere (serious crimes) rather than trying to recover a laptop which would be highly unlikely.

However that said I agree it is unfortunate for Radjabov, I sympathise with him and hope he has learned some valable lessons.

when signing his letter of complaint, teimour forgot to mention he won his second grade spelling bee, and is an honorary Boy Scout. Think he covered just about everything else though.

Garry will always be from Baku. He does not and never has self-identified as Azerbaijani (obviously not Azeri), which is a different matter. He was Soviet, now Russian, by culture, language, etc. I was just pointing out they were both from Baku.

First prize is 100,000 euros, probably not a coincidence.

>>(ii) Players do not receive appearance fees - all the money goes into prizes.<<

This implies that if you don't finish in top three (four?) you go home unpaid. I assume that's untrue and no player would risk weeks of preparation, travel, intense gameplay etc., all for a strong possibility of not getting a dime for it. Maybe even last place finisher gets an appearance fee or compensation of some sort?

Lawsuits on behalf of players pose the significant problem of unwanted financial liability on the sponsors' part.

Failure to hold the sponsors accountable for unacceptable playing conditions however poses the slightly more significant problem of continued shoddy player treatment: burglaries, robberies, locked toilets, unpaid fees, exclusion of Israeli citizens, ridiculous time controls and other nonsense that we have endured over the past decade.

Radjabov was upset for at least two main reasons (listed below).
My question is -- Which reason was the **BIGGER** factor in Radjabov's decision to withdraw?

[1] The deep sense of violation, including fear of bodily harm, that dominates one's thoughts for days after a traumatic event like this burglary.
It would have been hard to concentrate during games.

[2] The practical side of losing one's opening analysis, geared against each opponent in the tournament.
It would have been hard to win games without the same deep opening preparation his opponents would have.

(Would the theft of opening prep have been a must-withdraw scale problem in the Karpov era circa 1981?)

Los premios:
1º 100.000 Euros
2º 75.000 Euros
3º 50.000 Euros
4º 30.000 Euros
5º 20.000 Euros
6º 15.000 Euros
7º 13.000 Euros
8º 11.000 Euros

From http://www.chessbase.com/espanola/newsdetail2.asp?id=4694

zakki concisely shows us why Radjabov's demand is unreasonable. He wants the equivalent of a first prize award just for showing up? No wonder the tournament organisers told him where to stick it.

Some years back the pickup I was driving at the time got burgled. Whoever it was smashed a window and stole my backpack, which I had foolishly left on the passenger's seat. I should have felt "the deep sense of violation" strongly enough to take a week off work or demand $10,000 from my landlord (in whose parking lot my truck was broken into) but, somehow, I was able to struggle through the days after. *wipes away a tear*

Thanks, Mig and zakki, for your replies. If Radjabov really asked for 100K Euros, then he was asking for the equivalent of clear first (unknown appearance fees aside). Rather presumptuous, given the field...

There has been a lot of comments suggesting chess players should always bring their laptop(s) and other valuables when leaving their hotel room.
I'm normally soft spoken, but mind you, that is CRAP!
Professional chess players more or less live in hotel rooms (100-200 days a year). It's like a home and you got to trust the safety sometimes.

Not that I'm defending a 100K Euro claim though.

taking your notebook computer with you when going out for an evening meal would have meant asking to be mugged, not a good idea.

Well said Henrik C. I was beginning to wonder if I was the only player (not that I'm a 'top player' or anything remotely like it, but hey, I can feel violated too) who invariably left his laptop in the hotel room rather than check it in and out of the hotel safe every time I went down to the bar.

I have no idea - how common is it for hotel rooms at decent hotels to be broken in to? I would have thought it was something hotels could stop rather easily.

Guys: The theft of a laptop is just that: The theft of a laptop. No more. No less. It's irritating to the rightful owner of the laptop, but it should be covered by that some insurance policy. End of story.

Let's discuss the games of the tournament instead of this petty theft.

You don't address the greatest damage: the possibility that a top GM will be approached in the coming months with an offer to get access to Radja's full opening preparation. That's worth a lot even in material terms (for example, could immediately be translated to a great book on the KID).

RussianBear Chortled:

"People sue tobacco companies and McDonalds for what essentially are their own decisions."

WRONG WRONG WRONG.

People *sued* tobacco companies because they WITHHELD negative health information from the public for decades, making those decisions ill-informed.

I doubt one could 'take up' smoking today and sue the tobacco companies later in life, but previous generations, being fed the *obviously bullcrap* line from Corporate Tobacco, certainly were mislead on the negative health effects, regardless of how obviously bad it may have appeared at the time.

But, don't let the facts get in your way...please continue.

Curious notion to my mind that the tobacco companies owed any duty to the public to release negative information about their products. This was more or less exactly the problem with similar litigation here: it was found that they didn't. One suspects these claims could only have succeeded in a system where juries decide these things.

(Is that right, that juries decide liability on these things in the US as well as damages. Or is either or both of those things only true in John Grisham novels?)

roboz,

I don't see that scenario as too strong a possibility, yet. Trying to approach a top-level GM would be an easy way to get caught in a sting operation by police or a private agency. Not to mention that it should be fairly obvious to Radjabov that somebody got his notes. More trouble than it's worth for both sides.

To others,

If I lose a 10,000 reward for playing in a tournament (and potentially more, up to 100,000 and most people were predicting at least a third place finish for Radja or so) then asking for ten times that reward as compensation is not at all too much.

dimi: not only did they NOT pay 100 000 for a laptop, it is not obvious that Radjabov indeed requested such a sum. So I am not worried about nuking the sponsorship just yet. I AM worried about Radjabov's and other participants safety. What will happen if Topalov comes back to his hotel room tomorrow and gets stabbed just because the robbers were not fast enough this time?

chesstraveler: I am not saying they should have paid Radjabov 100 000 euros. I am just saying that at least Radjabov as not the bad guy here and is understandably upset.

GoobersAndRaisinettes, it was known at least since 1920s that smoking is very bad for your health. I don't see how tobacco companies could have withheld such information. Are you saying tobacco companies had monopoly on health-related information?

Yuriy, but he didn't ask for the 100,000 because he was forced to leave, he asked for it to stay and play! Basically saying, "If I stay and play and collect a guaranteed 11,000, I want an additional 100,000."

I don't see how anyone can believe that if Radja stayed and played he would be doing so without his opening prep. Surely his database is securely backed up at his home and he would have a replacement copy in Morelia within a half a day. What was he going to do if his laptop hard drive failed? He alone (or his team) is responsible for proper safe guards on his database, not the hotel, the tournament organizer, or anyone else.

rdh,

The cigarette companies were liable because they casued harm ('absolute liability' principle). Damages were potentially greater because they knew about the harm, but held back the information.

I would like (not really) to see an English airplane company (if you have any), withholding information that their plane is susceptible to engine failure, or a drug company withholding information that their new headache pill will damage your liver.

Surely such 'negative information about their products' must be released even in big business - friendly England?

Both drug and aeroplane companies are subject to specific regulation, gg, which would deal with this.

Is that seriously the law in the US?? You're liable for causing harm without any consideration of fault?

I'm not sure I see any reason at all why companies large or small should be liable for releasing information about the negative aspects of their product. It certainly isn't the general law in the UK. Caveat emptor, as they presumably don't say in Oklahoma.

At first I believed the 100,000 Euro request to be grossly excessive. After further consideration, I can understand why Radjabov felt it fair to ask for that amount. Playing form is a delicate thing at the highest levels and I am sure that he felt his ability to play well had been diminished by the emotional and practical aftermath of the burglary.

By playing, he risks his rating and his reputation as a player. If he has a very poor result, he may lose future invitations from other tournaments, which would cost him a lot of money. Additionally, his expectations for this tournament may have gone from projected first or second place (75,000 minimum) to 7th or 8th (around 12,000). That is a projected, though unprovable, loss of over 60,000 Euro.

He also has to worry about the possibility, however slight, that his computer was targeted specifically and that some other player now has access to all of his opening preparation (how much is that worth? It's got to be well over 100,000 Euros..)

That said, while I can understand why he feels wronged to that degree, I can not see how the organizers can fairly be held liable. It would be a kind gesture on their part to perhaps offer 5,000 or so to compensate him for his expenses involved with preparation and travel, but there is no way they owe him that great of a sum. The criminal very well may, but that's a dead end.

My bad...my eyes skipped the words "to stay and play" and went straight to "wanted 100,000".

Yeah, if Radj was to stay and play, he should not have demanded that amount of the organizers. 20 thousand maybe.

Then again it might have been not so much a demand for money...the very point might have been to tell the organizers that it would take an extraordinary ridiculous amount for him to play in these circumstances. Kind of like if you tell your boss you are quitting, he asks if there is anything he can offer you to make you stay and you say a Porsche, Kramnik's chess skills and a million dollars.

The source for the amount is anonymous. In fact, Radjabov denies he asked for it, according to at least one source.

On the subject of opening database loss. If Radjabov had made advances in the week preceeding the tournament, while traveling, he would certainly have made backups on his trainer's computer. And his trainer happens to also be his father. He also probably made a backup on a flash drive. Which most burglars would steal as well.

I only have one question. Does Danialov have an alibi?

"it was known at least since 1920s that smoking is very bad for your health. I don't see how tobacco companies could have withheld such information."

Even up into the early 60s tobacco companies had real doctors (not actors) appearing on tv saying how a particular brand of cigarette was good for you, and how they recommended it to their patients. In the 70s to mid-80s tobacco companies denied that their products were responsible for various diseases. They hired statisticians to discredit studies that showed correlation between smoking and disease. When their own sponsored researchers started producing correlations they did not publish or advertise these results. Some companies were still denying a casual relationship even in the early 90s. Makes me wonder now which (if?) other big companies are suppressing crucial information and running a massive disinformation campaign despite new laws that were enacted by the FDA to protect the public from such rampant greed. I'm keeping my eye on those milk and egg people. :->

No, he denies having *received* anything, which is clarified by the organizers, who stated on the record that they will reimburse him for the computer and that this was made clear to him. I'm also told they said they would pay him $1,000 for software, but he asked for the "huge sum" that everyone says was 100,000 euro. People at the hotel also said they offered to call the police but the Radjabovs said no and immediately left for Morelia. Judging from their press release the incident panicked them.

Allright, If you want to leave your laptop in your room (which has a disclaimer) and don't want to be 'inconvenienced', than be prepared to suffer the consequences. Hotel's vary in the type and amount of security they staff and none are foolproof. Yes, one can purchase another laptop and software, perhaps even have the hotel insurance will cover the entire financial loss; but in this case it's what's on the software that is of real value and that cannot (unless backed-up) be replaced. Also, remember when your in another country, you're a "tourist" and the possiblity of such a crime happening is most certainly enhanced. That's life, there are no guarantees. Quite frankly, it's your decision so make the one that feels most right for you. After all, chessplayers are like economists, you can lay all of us head-to-toe in a straight line and we'll still all point in different directions.

rdh,

gg got it right.

Caveat Emptor does not apply here:

Under the doctrine of Caveat Emptor, the buyer could not recover from the seller for defects on the property that rendered the property unfit for ordinary purposes. The only exception was if the seller actively concealed latent defects.

One would think, under your definition, I could sell Mad-cow laden beef knowingly to people and simply chortle 'Caveat Emptor, my man! Caveat Emptor!'.

Much of the cigarette lawsuit dealt with truth-in-advertising issues and advertising to minors.

Daniel J Andrews - one word for you: Pharmaceuticals.

Just watch any drug ad. The 'side-effects' are longer than the message.

FDA and Big Drug Companies are definitely sleeping together. If so, then who is on watch? The FDA? No, really, don't make me laugh....

Doctors SELL (they call it 'prescribe'...too funny) you drugs to take so you can get a known side effect so they can SELL you another drug.

Russianbear:

You're joking, right?

So, how's life in the Gulag?

RB: What will happen if Topalov comes back to his hotel room tomorrow and gets stabbed just because the robbers were not fast enough this time?

Unfortunately, such thing can happen everywhere. It's a great tragedy. A friend of mine who works for the B-g government traveled on a State Department invitation for a conference in Washington. DC. He got robbed a few blocks from the Capitol. The organizers were very supportive and apologetic. He got help from everywhere. Amazingly, this same guy was robbed in Sofia a month earlier. And an year earlier his luggage was stolen from a train in Italy...

All I am saying is that the alleged demand of 100K Euro of damages to be paid by the organizers is outrageous. I think that the organizers did what is appropriate in this case -- offered to reimburse him for the value of the lost goods, plus some good will…

Well, let me turn that around -- can the organizers guarantee the total safety of all players and personnel? How can they do that? Hire a private army? Not everybody is Kirsan to rule a small country and have every police sergeant on the street when the chess stars arrive...

D.

P.S. Have we slipped into the strange age when the chess player is only as good as his laptop? And if that’s the case then the responsibility is on the chess player to protect his tools of the trade.

Dimi,

What happened to your friend doesn't suprise me in the least. Ironically, that area of Washington D.C. has the highest crime rate per capita of any city in the U.S.

Following Andrew's comments above, if the database was truly lost the incident could actually cost Radja on the order of $100K when you consider this as well as future tournaments. I say this mostly because it would take him significant time to 'catch up' to where he was when the time spent doing so would have been used on new analysis. Any programmer who ever lost a large piece of code or mathematician/engineer/scientist who lost a complicated derivation will understand this.

Also, I'm not entirely convinced it would be so easy to determine (let alone prove) that his analysis had fallen into the hands of other GMs; they need not play his ideas directly but instead look for refuations which could be used against him, thus killing the novelty factor and transforming wins to draws or losses. So even if he has a backup (which he bloody well should) the damage is still done. Novelities don't necessarily need to be rock solid to generate wins, just ask Topalov.

Nonetheless, I still maintain that his request for "a huge sum" (if true) was likely meant as an insult to the organizers in the same way he felt insulted by premeditated theft. The context of this "huge sum" demand has yet to be clarified. It also befits the organizers to make Radja look a bit foolish, as he did to them when the story first broke. Unfortunately (predictably) the dollar amount now dominates all threads on this blog.

rdh

"I'm not sure I see any reason at all why companies large or small should be liable for releasing information about the negative aspects of their product. "

They are liable for not releasing. I suppose you mean 'duty-bound to release'.

You really can't think of any reason? A beer company knows its product contains methanol but lets rdh drink it nonetheless? A newspaper company knows the ink it uses is carcinogenic, but hey keep it secret and rdh will diligently find out anyway.

i wouldn't rule out the possibility of this: the event was staged. Before you dismiss this, consider.

A lot of chessplayers are against having chess tournaments in "developing countries" which are "unsafe" etc. Also there are elements in chess politics who are against this, like Kasparov and Kramnik.
Now, if you ask me, more than about safety, it could be about preserving one's accustomed comforts. They don't wanna go to places like Mexico because it's hot there, they might not have all the luxuries they have in "civilized" countries, like 100 television channels with any sport event going on live, you name it.
Also on the political side, Kirsan & Campo & co have always been greatly maligned for expanding chess to developing countries, and allegedly this has stopped some "western" candidates from reaching the FIDE throne, because the developing countries like to vote for people who also take care of them chess-wise.
During the last elections i even heard comments that only certain kinds of countries should be allowed to vote, i read Kramnik saying tournaments should be held in "civilized countries" or did he say civilized western countries, doesn't matter...the point is clear.

Now, is it so hard to come up with an idea that when atournament is held in Mexico, stage an incident that clearly shows to everyone how bad an idea it is to hold tournaments in these countries.
And isn't it convenient that Chucky just happened to be there by accident?

Conspiracy theory? If you wanna put a tag on it so you don't have to think about it, then call it what you will.

To me it makes sense, and though there's no proof, there's clear indicators towards this.

As far as the chess goes, I really am curious what Kasparov thinks about Radjabov's KID. I think chess fans are too hard on Kasparov for dropping the KID. He lost faith in it, and that's reasonable.

Consider an alternate possibility:

The event was staged by Kirsan & Campo & co to malign people like Kramnik & Koch and others who favor civilized playing conditions. Since clever non-paranoid observers like yourself were bound to come up with a theory like yours in spite of there being any proof for it, Azmaiparashvili and Makropoulos used the cable wiring they previously installed in Radjabov's toilet to observe when he was about to leave the room, broke in, stole the laptop, flew Ivanchuk in (because you know that having him there would be a lot worse for the organizers than if the tournament were to lose a player) and then waited for the smarter individuals to accuse Kramnik of large elaborate criminal scheme, all designed so he could watch UEFA Champions League in color and have air conditioning.

Don't feel bad though that you fell for this long-winded nonsense. After all, there were clear indicators.

A similar incident happened during last year's Las Vegas Masters. IM David Vigorito, the only "local" participant had his home broken into and his laptop stolen. I believe IM Josh Friedel was staying with him at the time and I'm not sure if he had anything stolen. All the other players were staying in the hotel near to where the tournament was being played and nothing happened to them.

As an organizer, running things on a very tight budget, I was unable to help David, nor did I feel any obligation to although I definitely deeply sympathized with his plight, especially since he had six months worth of work on his new book on it, without a backup (I think he's learned from this harsh lesson).

Even if this had happened to one of the GMs that I invited, and paid for their hotel stay, I don't think I would have felt any obligation to compensate them for an unfortunate event occuring at the hotel.

Hopefully I'll never have to cross this bridge!

Yuriy,

"Long-winded nonsense", but I enjoyed the imagination.

Yuriu, the best refutation of that 'alternate reality theory' of yours is the fact that you come up with it only as a counter-argument to mine; that is, it is pure fabrication and is supported by no 'collateral evidence'.

It is this collateral evidence, or the big picture, that i refer to, that gives credence to my theory. Kirsna & Campo & co don't control anything. They have no way of controlling what gets published and in which manner it gets publicized.
There is way too much publicity for this simple robbery, and obviously Radjabov's reaction to it is way beyond the reaction of an individual who got robbed.

However, Chessbase is an influential "news" "service" that controls what the public thinks. This is a simple case of having your cake and getting to eat it, too. When one controls both sides of the debate, one can pretty much control the outcome.

Do you think that i really believe the dozens of people yelling support and brilliance for any theory Mig puts forward are real? i don't.

Yuriu, your quick reply suggests to me that you are one of the disguised controllers which definitely would explain much of the garbage you have been spouting here.

Oh yes, don't forget to call me a crackpot and a nutcase so that the public gets the 'right', euphemism for politically correct, impression of me.

"Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when your always afraid, step out of line-the man comes and takes you away..."

Kehaar, a paranoid's (stopped) clock is also right twice a day...

Guys,

I don't know how to respond to this guy.
He offers a theory which has nothing to support it aside from "these people would have a slight benefit from the crime". On that basis it's possible to pin the robbery on Topalov, Ivanchuk, FIDE, Corus organizers, Radjabov's ex-girlfriend and anybody else you want. While arguing he makes ridiculous statements and leaps of logic ("Kirsan don't control anything"--Kirsan of course controls a lot in chess, and is richer, more powerful, and better connected than all of the world's GMs put together; Kasparov of course has no interest in where tournaments are played anymore; if you wanted to destroy Morelia you wouuld on the opposite make sure Ivanchuk is nowhere near Mexico; any news service has some control over public debate--that does not mean everything that happens is something they did; "There is way too much publicity for this simple robbery"--open any newspaper and you will find that scandalous stories about celebrities will always get more exposure and cause more interest than anything else).

It's easy to create an argument based on all these errors. But it does not make sense to argue. Because anybody who argues with him is not real, is a disguised controller and is spouting garbage. If you think somebody is a crackpot or a nutcase, that is never because the theory is actually a crackpot or nutcase theory.

If my reply to his post was quick (and it was actually three hours later) to any logical person that would be taken as a sign that I spend too much time on this board, that I have little else to do or alternately, that I find his post interesting or worth replying to. The real explanation as it happens is that I don't have a lot of work at the moment and spent a lot of 9-5 hours in front of the PC. But to him me being a part of a brainwashing conspiracy is not only more likely, but is the only logical conclusion.

Very well. These lyrics creep into my head:

"It's a restless hungry feeling
That don't mean no one no good,
When ev'rything I'm a-sayin'
You can say it just as good.
You're right from your side,
I'm right from mine.
We're both just too many mornings
An' a thousand miles behind."

well, all I can say is, I wont hire rdh for litigation any time soon.. :-)