Levon Aronian and Vishy Anand dominated the preliminary rounds of the FiNet Chess960 rapid event in Mainz. They finished 1-2 with 4.5 and 4 points out of 6, respectively. Both were undefeated. Kasimjanov and Bacrot were well back and will face off in tomorrow's match for places 3-4 while Vishy and defending champ Aronian battle it out for the shuffle chess world championship. Kasim lost all three games today. Tomorrow's final matches are four games with possible tiebreaks. The FiNet Chess960 Open begins tomorrow as well with dozens of GMs. Participants include Kamsky, Shirov, Volokitin, Akopian, Ivanchuk, Mamedyaroov, Karjakin, Dreev, Grischuk, and Harikrishna, who will have to hot-foot it from Paks, Hungary, where he just today won the Georgy Marx Memorial =1st with Acs! Sorry if I missed any big names, but the players are democratically listed in alphabetical order.
Since the Mainz website, which is otherwise extensive in both German and English, has again declined to put up simple results pages the only way to figure these things out promptly is to go through the plethora of live game pages and tally things up. Just like last year. Oddly, they do have a results link under each event listing this time, but it's a PDF download and is a day behind. Wanted, tot oder lebendig: a single html page with all the crosstables and results updated after each round. Kudos to Johannes Fischer, Eric van Reem and arbiter Hans Secelle for the fine reports as ever.
I probably say this every year (since I'm rehashing the same website complaints, why not?), but I just don't have the energy to give the Chess960 games the attention they require. In theory, it would be interesting to compare how the games evolve differently from the same starting position each day -- especially true with hundreds of games in the big open. But since they still don't/can't release the scores in a useful database format, there's an additional hurdle. (Grokking the initial position in the first place is the other one.) If they want to give the games as PGN with "illegal" moves as comments, as they are doing now, couldn't they also give them in ChessBase format or something else that can parse Fischerandom moves? I don't think there has been any advance in the problems described in this post and by Gene and others in the knowledgeable commentariat last year. CB 9 still can't create Chess960 games, but it can read them if they are created in Fritz.
mig,
first thank you for reporting, nice to see the site updated. I also want to provide 2 interesting resources. A report http://www.chessvibes.com/?p=1145 and videos http://videos.chessdom.com/mainz-anand-aronian-kasimdzhanov
Chessgames has no discussions for Mainz... i didnt post a single comment there, I am disappointed. And nicely surprised that you are writing
Why do you both with shuffle 'chess' anyway?
... bother with shuffle chess ...
"(Grokking the initial position in the first place is the other one.)"
Heinlein still rocks after all these years.
Shredderchess.com offers a 30 day test version of the Shredder Classic 2 interface, which supports the Chess960 PGN format(*) the Mainz files use:
http://www.shredderchess.com/download.html
I tried it briefly, with a Chess960 PGN from the Chess Tigers. It works. You can load it like any other PGN and browse through the games. No need to set up the starting position or something.
(One thing I noticed though was, that one game was broken, with '#' letters or mate symbols after almost all moves. Hopefully, that was a problem of that particular file only...)
*) The Chess960 PGN of Mainz uses the so called Shredder-FEN to encode the castling rights in the header entry for the starting position. This uses the letters of the files where the rooks are initially (i.e. DBdb), to avoid ambiguities which could arise under rare circumstances. The other format variant is X-FEN, which uses KQkq like in the normal PGN.
I do not know at the moment, how X-FEN handles cases to distinguish a castle-capable rook from a rook which may have come from the other wing, but that problem has been addressed. - Also, I currently do not know Chess960 details about Fritz 9/10 because I use Fritz 8, still.
Nevertheless I have made some Chess960 experiments, but with selected positions containig R/a,K/e,R/h :-)) which are compatible with the standard PGN and old interfaces. They are illegal though by classical chess definitions, but no interface or engine makes a 'retroanalytical' legality control to detect that.
**1** Mig perhaps downloaded an odd file today, because I agree with PermanentBrain that -- this year the DGT boards seem to produce .PGN files Fritz9 can fully understand without any modifications.
**1b** WordPad.exe visually displays the newLine characters better than does NotePad.exe. Pasting from WordPad into NotePad causes NotePad to precede each newLine with a carriageReturn (not that Fritz9 cares).
**2** X-FEN is unused.
Fritz9 understands Shredder-FEN for both chess960 and traditional chess.
**3** Below are the only two additional tags needed by Fritz9 for chess960 PGN -- SetUp and FEN (the [Variant] tag is unneeded):
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "qrnbbkrn/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/QRNBBKRN w GBgb - 0 1"]
@Tony: Did you ever try it? I was sceptic too, but it was an interesting experience to have to think from the very first move onwards. And, to be frankly, I'm quite fed up with lengthy grandmaster theory discussions about variations I never play. I would like to see more 960 events - they might even bring me back to chess tournaments.
@Tony: Did you ever try it? I was sceptic too, but it was an interesting experience to have to think from the very first move onwards. And, to be frankly, I'm quite fed up with lengthy grandmaster theory discussions about variations I never play. I would like to see more 960 events - they might even bring me back to chess tournaments.
@Tony: Did you ever try it? I was sceptic too, but it was an interesting experience to have to think from the very first move onwards. And, to be frankly, I'm quite fed up with lengthy grandmaster theory discussions about variations I never play. I would like to see more 960 events - they might even bring me back to chess tournaments.
@Tony: Did you ever try it? I was sceptic too, but it was an interesting experience to have to think from the very first move onwards. And, to be frankly, I'm quite fed up with lengthy grandmaster theory discussions about variations I never play. I would like to see more 960 events - they might even bring me back to chess tournaments.
Sorry about the repeated posts - there was a problem with the CGI script ("internal server error").
I guess Chess960 is one of those things that I would try, like bughouse. Though, I still think that amateurs (like me) who play it to avoid theory are a bit disillusioned by how much opening theory it requires to be successful in traditional chess at the class level.
Mig,
I'd suggest making a global banner announcement that says "DONT REPOST IF YOU HAVE INTERNAL SERVICE ERROR.... YOUR POST REALLY MADE IT!!!"
I second the announcement!
I second the announcement!
"Heinlein still rocks after all these years."
Well, he *sucks* them, anyway, from the sample I've read (which, to be fair, doesn't include any of his older juveniles.) I shudder whenever I see someone use _grok_ even in jest. _Stranger in a Strange Land_ was a real "throwing book" for me.
Does White have the advantage in chess960 as in classical chess? (What would this mean?)
edgar, according to Kasparov it depends on the piece arrangement. Some starting positions give white a huge advantage, others a miniscule one.
maybe they should play each starting position twice, so both players get both colors?
A few comments:
Unless shuffle chess had a castling rule identical to what Fischer suggested - the game should be called Fischer Random Chess --
or FR-Chess960 if the 960 thing sounds cool.
Regardless of the disdain for chessvariants shown by many, chess does need to evolve and many in the grandmaster level reckognize that.
pretty soon we may get an omega chess tournament played by grandmasters - it has been endorsed already by at least 3.
A gothic chess match between GMs is sure to happen.
And to speculate further the GMs and experts just need to look at chessvariants and vote on the game they like best.
Evolution is not the same as extinction.
Evolution? I think it is a curiosity--like odds games, simuls, and blindfold games. They are only interesting given the situations. Not that any of them aren't interesting, but none will replace chess through evolution.
Aronian won, beating Vishy in the final 960Chess match, which went to Blitz Tie-Breaks (Score: Aronian 1.5--Anand 0.5) In theior 4 game rapid match, Aronian won the 1st game, while Vishy came back to win the 4th and final game, thus forcing the blitz Tie-Break. Bacrot clinched nex-to-last by beating Kasimdzhanov 3.0-1.0 in their Rapid match
Some variants are very 'chesslike' like: Fischer Random, Omega Chess, (Capablanca) Gothic Chess, Grand chess
But it is not about replacement. Chess will not last forever and will eventually die out regardless of whether a variant takes over.
Can you really doubt this, taking into consideration the amount of opening theory that is known? 2500+rated players will need something more exciting to play.
A chess variant that is 'chesslike' but adds a different dimension to chess will be unexplored and more exciting than a game where every road has already been travelled.
Its a misconception to think that a 'chesslike' chess variant that catches on will kill chess. On the contrary it will ensure that chess does not die.
So far FR960 is a good candidate, but there are others that are interesting.
omega chess at www.omegachess.com is a bit different but quite unique.
edgar wrote: {Does White have the advantage in chess960 as in classical chess? (What would this mean?)}
The traditional setup, S#518, gives White an unfair advantage that is bigger than some setups, yet smaller than some others.
Through 2001-2006, the hard data from Mainz showed a slightly SMALLER advantage for White in chess960 overall (Mainz runs a sister traditional chess tournament, enabling statistical comparisons).
- - - - - -
Chess960 has enough setup and opening variety that the whole policy of giving one player an advantage over the other can be discarded.
In chess960, after the first player moves, the second player should decide which color pieces he wants to play.
Most starting positions in Chess960 are too ugly.
The castling rules are artificial. This variant will never be popular.
They should have kept the traditional placements of rooks and king.
Yeah, I know...
There are only 18 positions in Chess18, so you could develop for each position new opening theory.
Who cares? Does anyone think this is very practical? Memorizing 18 times the opening theory of today is pretty huge.
At least the rules of Chess still apply. Such a variant might be accepted.
Gene M Wrote {after the first player moves, the second player should decide which color pieces he wants to play. }
I think this is too artificial and contrived. Isn't it simpler if they just played 2 games switching sides in the next game?
Come to think of it even in regular chess tournaments each player should play the other twice instead of once.
In 960 though, if it is a long time control match and there is only 1 game per day, they should play the same position twice but let the position be known beforehand like 1 day before. So the preparation time would be equal for both players.
Thats a lot of simpler than the contrived rule you propose.
As for chess18 - that is not a bad idea to preserve some symetry. I think the castling is quite logical actually and easy to understand from ANY position as long as you visualize that the goal is to reach one of 2 castled positions which are fixed on either wing. Think of it as a secret bunker to which the king is moved.
Omar's idea of preparation time is interesting. It seems that some of the earlier posts are suggesting that Chess960 will make preparation and opening memorization impossible/impractical. However, with preparation time each player would be able to access past games, read article on the specific set up, and ,in short, spend hours preparing for the game--the one thing so many are trying to avoid. Let's face it: to play better chess or chess960 requires work. Anyone who understands exponential growth knows that chess is not going to be solved anytime soon, so what's the difference between working "deeper" into chess1 rather than working "wider" into chess960? If openings feel stale to anyone, I think that is the problem of an unadventurous or unimaginative player--not the problem of chess. I'm not anti-chess960, I anti-anti-chess1.
I agree with Gene M. The first player makes a move, and the second player has the choice. Calling this artificial or contrived begs the question. The point of Chess960 is to play chess from the first move--not to prepare an opening.
The Aronian-Anand fight was splendid.
Anand interview: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4052
Whether these rules are not unfair to the other participants [Kramnik gets another chance if he does not win Mexico, if he does Topalov gets to play him]: Of course it is unfair. But I have stopped fretting over the world chess federation FIDE. They always do the same. It would be so nice if they did not keep discarding their own rules. At some stage you become sick of all this and decide to just play chess. That is exactly what has happened to me now.
Whether the way Silvio Danailov applies pressure to gain advantages for his client Topalov are irritating: I have learnt to accept the fact that FIDE will keep changing it rules and breaking them. So Kramnik will get his match, and then Topalov his. I just look forward to Mexico. It is pointless fighting against the impossible. The world chess federation will do anything it likes.
Schmitt, organizer of Mainz Open: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4046
The latest FIDE coup determines that Kramnik, even if he should not be successfull in Mexico, will get a match against the winner of the world championship tournament. And the winner of that match will play in a match against the winner of a match between Topalov and the winner of the World Cup. Very confusing. What is your opinion about this special status for these players?
Words fail me. In general I get sick and tired of this haggling and the protection of vested rights of the world champions. Topalov and Kramnik will get a double chance. This construction with two or three matches is simply very unfair. Let's face it: if you do not win Mexico, you're out. Then you have to qualify in Khanty-Mansyk in a field with 128 players in a two-games knock-out system with rapid chess tie-breaks. And in the end a well-prepared and relaxed Topalov waits for you. I would love to become the council for the other 16 players in the top-20 to defend their rights.
What else must be changed in the world of chess in your view?
There is no money in the chess world. There is no serious company that will be willing to show itself on the stage with Iljumshinov. Chess represents strategic management, handling foresightful, exact thinking, making decisions. These are qualities those responsible in FIDE do not have. Another thing is, there is still no rapid chess world rating list available – which is quasi a boycott against Chess Entertainment. If players were able to improve their rating in any rapid chess event, this form of chess would become even more popular.
Garry Kasparov: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4055
Should German companies stop investing in Russia, in order to protest?
Kasparov: I wouldn't go so far. If a company can do business in Russia – go ahead! I simply do not believe that this will change anything in the way the system works. Foreign investments are dangerous when business and politics are mixed and follow the principle: you open your market and we close our mouths.
In the meantime Russian companies are investing billions in West Europe, mainly in Germany. That causes concern to large parts of the population. With justification?
Kasaprov: Of course! It is mainly companies like Gazprom, who want to gain a foothold in the West. They are under the control of the Kremlin and are not just after profits, but also striving for political influence. If the Putin clan wants something it will use any means, legal or illegal. Why do you think that of all places Sochi was selected to host the Winter Games in 2014, even though the city is quite unsuitable for this event?
Tell us.
Kasparov: It was a clear case of corruption. Putin himself met with fifteen members of the International Olympic Committee and had some very convincing monetary arguments in his briefcase. After he had won the bid in this way the state will invest twelve billion dollars in Sochi. You can count on it that most of the money will end up in the pockets of companies close to Putin. Incidentally, it would not surprise me at all if Putin became the next IOC President.
I think Anand played better than Aronian in the first 3 games and was unlucky to lose the 1st game (on time it seemed). I didn't watch the 4th game or the tiebreaks (I thought there were only 3 games scheduled...). It was quite interesting that he did not rush to get a 'normal' piece co-ordination or to castle which Aronian and Bacrot tended to do...
I am a big fan of Anand so I am not sure if this opinion or not. Anyone else felt the same?
*if this opinion or not*
read: if this opinion is biased or not
... it was interesting that he had his opponents in time trouble even in this form of chess and i couldn't help thinking of de Groot and some analysis he did about masters and standard chess positions as opposed to arbitrarily placed piece arrangement....
Commenting on Bill M
{The point of Chess960 is to play chess from the first move--not to prepare an opening. }
Actually, you can prepare for all 960 variations, if this variant were to replace chess - so no. My point earlier is that in a long match where only 1 game per day is possible, it would be fairer to play the same position twice, one player playing black then white in the next game.
But, since this will enable the player playing white the second day about 1/2 day of preparation, just let the position be known to both players 1/2 day before the first game.
Preparation in 1/2 a day is very different from preparing for months in advance. The point is the opening theory will not be as deep as in regular chess. That is the advantage of chess960 we cannot eliminate preparation altogether. Aronian is clearly now very 'experienced' in the positions he has played before. IF they come back again, he will have a decided advantage.
Gene M's idea is ridiculous and it is irritating that he keeps posting this idea all over the place - it is so 'unchesslike'. Take regular chess for example, what a crappy game it would be if I play e4 then the other player chooses my side and plays. I will never get to play white then. But it won't affect my performance that much because I just checked, I have won more games as black than white!!! This whole notion that white has a forced win with some opening moves is nonsense. What is so hard about playing 2 games and switching colors.
Perhaps this is a new variant - The pie rule chess game .. I sure don't want to play it.
Bologan just won the Finet 960 Open, defeating sole leader Ivanchuk :-( in the last round, with the Black pieces to boot.
Bologan focused like a laser beam on the weak White d5-pawn which was artificially isolated. Chucky resigned on move 31 because he was down two pawns for nothing and Black's pieces were also very active.
stringTheory wrote (Aug 17, 12:49):
{I think Anand played better than Aronian in the first 3 games and was unlucky to lose the 1st game ...
}
The 4th/final chess960 game between Anand-vs-Aronian was their most interesting.
As in game 1, Anand neglected the defense of his a1 square and spent several moves surviving that early oversight (this is Game/20 minutes after all).
Anand quickly lost castling privileges, and was a pawn down.
But then...
Anand became the aggressor, and Aronian delayed castling one move too long.
Aronian lost his castling privileges, and Anand imprisoned Aronian's Bh8 so that Aronian was essentially a piece down.
(Years ago Kramnik commented on this fragility in bishops that start on a corner square.)
Eventually Aronian lost his passed pawn and an exchange.
Anand still bitter about the special privileges of Kramnik and Topalov in the next world championship cycle: http://www.hindustantimes.com/storypage/storypage.aspx?id=0e59d744-1ff1-4e83-8294-4d0ba6d7f63f
Well, Kirsan and FIDE are breaking their own rules to announce "World Championship" insanities, and Kok and Global Chess are supposed to find the funds to support the insanities ...
Zero wrote:
"Well, Kirsan and FIDE are breaking their own rules to announce "World Championship" insanities, and Kok and Global Chess are supposed to find the funds to support the insanities ..."
Kok is just Kirsan's lap dog these days. Kok CANNOT bring money to chess. Nobody can. That's the way it has ALWAYS been and that's the way it will always be, for the simple reason that most people don't have any interest in the game.
Yes, a couple of players will make a million or 2 playing for the World Championship, but the rest (all GM's) will not make more than US$10,000 per year (lifetime average for the group of GM's).
Chess is just a game. Not art (as computers have easily proven) - not science. Just a beautiful, complex game.