Chicago, Chicago

Mig- check out Chess Vision Trainer at http://www.chesstechno.com/ This program rocks! I have probably gained 150 rating pts. from doing the exercises with this program.

I greatly prefer Playchess over ICC. The primary reason is the superior interface. It's much more attractive, user friendly, and the board is more legible. I usually log on twice a day for about 1 - 1.5 hours total (I play 15 min blitz).

I prefer to follow the live master games on Playchess, but will go to the official sites when necessary. I enjoy the lectures on Playchess and esp. follow Monokroussos' presentations. I used to enjoy ICC's radio, but now that they've limited it to paying members, I no longer hear it. Please don't remind me that I can hear it with a trial membership, I long ago used up that option.

I'd like to be able to play "blindfold" chess online.

FICS is my haunt, unbeatable value for money, since its free!

Mig:

Since I don't see another convenient spot for this: Congratulations on your CJA award! Well done. (Nice interview, too.)

Readers: If this is obtuse, see the USCF web site.

Prefer PlayChess over ICC for interface (as mentioned by Robert above), but also because I think it's less anonymous (more players open with their identity).

Also I like playing *tournaments* rather than sporadic games and lately I've also started to arrange my own tournaments in my OTB-clubs newly opened own "room" at the PlayChess-server.

Monthly blitzes there, with non-anonymous players that you are likely to meet also OTB (my tournaments are open for Swedish speaking non-anonymous players) are IMHO much more fun than playing a dozen games against anonymous people like "KasparovII", "Kramnikfan" or whatever they are called.

I prefer ICC to PlayChess, although I agree that the ICC GUI is a bit dodgy. Dasher is an improvement but not the paradigm shift I was expecting. I usually login, play a 3 minute game and then logout - either I lose, in which case I am ready to quit chess instantly, or I win, in which case I don't want to spoil my good mood by another instant loss...

Mig, thanks for asking! I spend about an hour a day on FICS. I like playing (of course), the lectures and the tournaments. If I were a stronger player I might like ICC. For about 2.5 years I paid for USChessLive. I really tried to support them (often staying on when no one was available to play in order to "be there" when someone wanted a game). Originally I felt that the quality of discourse was higher on USChessLive than on FICS. But near the end of my time there I did experience some name-calling and other junk. About a year before my paid subscription expired, I quit going to USChessLive due to an experience that angered me. Here's what happened: I was playing a standard rated game with another player. We were well into a very interesting fight where I was down a pawn, but felt I still had lots of fighting chances. I got disconnected from the server (I think my DSL locked up), I reconnected in less than 3 minutes and found that my game had been adjudicated as a loss!!! Note that this was definitely a manual adjudication (since I was a paid member I couldn't have lost due to the disconnection). I contacted the admins and even the owner (at the time) and got no response. My theory is that my opponent was a friend of an admin. This was really outrageous to me. I haven't played on USChessLive since. USChessLive never really got enough players to be as "reliable" as FICS.

Mig, thanks for asking! I spend about an hour a day on FICS. I like playing (of course), the lectures and the tournaments. If I were a stronger player I might like ICC. For about 2.5 years I paid for USChessLive. I really tried to support them (often staying on when no one was available to play in order to "be there" when someone wanted a game). Originally I felt that the quality of discourse was higher on USChessLive than on FICS. But near the end of my time there I did experience some name-calling and other junk. About a year before my paid subscription expired, I quit going to USChessLive due to an experience that angered me. Here's what happened: I was playing a standard rated game with another player. We were well into a very interesting fight where I was down a pawn, but felt I still had lots of fighting chances. I got disconnected from the server (I think my DSL locked up), I reconnected in less than 3 minutes and found that my game had been adjudicated as a loss!!! Note that this was definitely a manual adjudication (since I was a paid member I couldn't have lost due to the disconnection). I contacted the admins and even the owner (at the time) and got no response. My theory is that my opponent was a friend of an admin. This was really outrageous to me. I haven't played on USChessLive since. USChessLive never really got enough players to be as "reliable" as FICS.

Mig, thanks for asking! I spend about an hour a day on FICS. I like playing (of course), the lectures and the tournaments. If I were a stronger player I might like ICC. For about 2.5 years I paid for USChessLive. I really tried to support them (often staying on when no one was available to play in order to "be there" when someone wanted a game). Originally I felt that the quality of discourse was higher on USChessLive than on FICS. But near the end of my time there I did experience some name-calling and other junk. About a year before my paid subscription expired, I quit going to USChessLive due to an experience that angered me. Here's what happened: I was playing a standard rated game with another player. We were well into a very interesting fight where I was down a pawn, but felt I still had lots of fighting chances. I got disconnected from the server (I think my DSL locked up), I reconnected in less than 3 minutes and found that my game had been adjudicated as a loss!!! Note that this was definitely a manual adjudication (since I was a paid member I couldn't have lost due to the disconnection). I contacted the admins and even the owner (at the time) and got no response. My theory is that my opponent was a friend of an admin. This was really outrageous to me. I haven't played on USChessLive since. USChessLive never really got enough players to be as "reliable" as FICS.

Mig, thanks for asking! I spend about an hour a day on FICS. I like playing (of course), the lectures and the tournaments. If I were a stronger player I might like ICC. For about 2.5 years I paid for USChessLive. I really tried to support them (often staying on when no one was available to play in order to "be there" when someone wanted a game). Originally I felt that the quality of discourse was higher on USChessLive than on FICS. But near the end of my time there I did experience some name-calling and other junk. About a year before my paid subscription expired, I quit going to USChessLive due to an experience that angered me. Here's what happened: I was playing a standard rated game with another player. We were well into a very interesting fight where I was down a pawn, but felt I still had lots of fighting chances. I got disconnected from the server (I think my DSL locked up), I reconnected in less than 3 minutes and found that my game had been adjudicated as a loss!!! Note that this was definitely a manual adjudication (since I was a paid member I couldn't have lost due to the disconnection). I contacted the admins and even the owner (at the time) and got no response. My theory is that my opponent was a friend of an admin. This was really outrageous to me. I haven't played on USChessLive since. USChessLive never really got enough players to be as "reliable" as FICS.

Forgot that I wanted to comment on another of Migs questions as well.

I *would like* to watch broadcasts over the official sites rather than a server. I think the organisers should be credited and sponsors honored by my presence. HOWEVER: I get really annoyed with BAD tournament sites and then I tend to use a server anyway.

I REALLY enjoyed the Kramnik-Leko-WCh2004-site. Parts of Mexico-2007-site was promising, but I fear it will turn out disasterous. (Just look at the list of "players classified" mentioning just four of the players and 517 other confusing things. With less than a week to go...)

I prefer Playchess over ICC. No comparison for me, really. I would never pay to play online unless you count that I technically paid for Playchess with my purchase of Fritz. Really, I don't understand why anybody would want to pay to join ICC. I enjoyed Aagaard's radio show on Playchess quite a bit and wish he would continue with the program. Remember Rogozenko's lessons back in the day? I loved those. I also enjoy Dennis M's show and the Andrew Martin show. Seirawan's analysis of live tournament games is great and I would consider paying the nominal fee, though honestly I haven't yet. I go through periods where I play quite a bit online (such as all-night) and long periods where I don't play at all. As far as following games online, I usually watch them on Playchess. I used to like the chat in the very beginning, even though the conversation rarely had anything to do with the game, but now I usually shut the chat window completely because I find the banter (and computer analysis) annoying. When watching Grandmaster games live was a new experience for me I used to watch the games intently and tried to guess the moves. Now I find the whole process too time consuming and, frankly, boring. I usually just read Shipov's analysis after the game. That's more about me than you wanted to know, but you asked for a survey.

J.A. Topfke

ICC for me. Been there for 8+ years.
Have no complaints about the interface; it does the job. Love the commentary for major events on ICC. Enjoy John Watson's show and occasionally look/listen at the other presenters shows, Benjamin, Heisman, etc.
Why pay ? It is tremendous value. Less than a $ 1 per week. During one major event, there could be close to 50 hours of coverage alone !
Oh yes, I play , mostly tournaments these days, 5 minute and three minute, primarily to hone the opening repertoire.

Looks like I'm the only one to think ICC's interface is much more user-friendly than Playchess. The Playchess one is just too confusing.

I don't play much online since it's hard to find people to play serious games with. Watch live events a lot.

Are the membership numbers correct? Playchess has 215,000 and ICC has 30,000? Playchess being seven times bigger than ICC? FICS claims to have 300,000 members, the biggest of them all?

I prefer ICC over Playchess. Of course, I have a Mac, and Playchess does not have a Mac client, so ICC wins by default for me. Playchess is probably more user-friendly, simply because ICC had its roots from the more text-based ICS, back when I'd often use a regular telnet client to telnet in and play no-increment speed chess using an ASCII board and typing my moves in.

I've been an ICC member for twelve years. Is that possible? I play blitz a lot and watch big tournament commentary. I'm getting older and I gauge my mental accuity by my falling rating. I never lived in a city large enough for an active chess club and ICC is like Christmas all year.

zero@ego, FICS accounts never expire. So the large number represents the total number of accounts ever registered, not the number of players playing.

At FICS, number of players who logged in during:
Last year: 66258
Last 9 months: 57055
Last 6 months: 46372
Last 3 months: 34465
Last month: 23873
Last week: 16273
Last day: 8582
Last hour: 645

Of course you will have less players at a pay site than a free site. But the players at the pay site will be coming on all the time, otherwise they wouldn't have paid for it.

Playchess, no contest. I only play at work, never at home.

Playchess. Nothing compares to Yasser Seirawan´s live analysis. I tried ICC (and to be honest I created a fake account once to get another peek) but its interface needs updating.

Having drunk the Playchess kool-aid by purchasing Fritz 8 and Chessbase, I have had a good taste for both interfaces, and the fact is that Playchess crashes too often for me. ICC has been down a total of *one time* in the past 2 years where/when I wanted to log on. Playchess has been down *numerous* times.

Playchess is also buggy and hangs occasionally, causing the need to log on and off again, or in extreme cases, reboot or terminate program.

So, I'm an ICC guy by test. The interface is adequate and does not affect my play at all, seeing as 99% of my games are slow games and I play them on a board set up next to me anyway, with the exception of time pressure.

I don't know if it's because
a) I'm american
b) most players on playchess are european
c) or both

but the player pool on playchess seems to be, in general, a bit more prone to being 'computer' rude.

Compare:
Playchess - 1 year, 29,90 € (40.8703 USD)
ICC - 1 year, $59.95 USD

ICC seems to be more in tune with the pulse of current events as well, with numerous game transmissions, etc.

My opinion.

In response to Mig's poll:

I'm a proud member of the ICC.

I pay to play, but also pay to watch GM tournaments and hear commentary by Mig, Benjamin, Fedorowicz, and other unseemly characters.

Another thing I pay for is to watch casual speed chess among occasional super-GM visitors like Grischuk, Radjabov, Morozevich, etc. It's thrilling to watch top-10 players blitz, not to mention Nakamura dismantle all comers while simultaneously discussing politics, his social life, and other interesting topics with spectators.

I think it's hilarious that ICC will tell you what percentage of your life you are frittering away on their Web site. I believe you can do that by typing "personal". I spend about 6% of my life on ICC.

I've joined ICC in 1996 and it's been like my second home. A lot of significant events in my life after 1996 have happened or were shared by my friends on this server. Nothing personal against Playchess, but ICC is my family :) and that's where I am.

FICS is a great server that doesn't get all the credit it deserves. The best thing about it is that you can use Babaschess, probably the best interface out there.

Playchess FTW. I've got active accounts on both ICC and Playchess, and for me the Playchess interface is just cleaner, better organized, and the board graphics are better.

I've spent quite some time trying to tweak the visual settings for the Dasher board, but I've come to realize none of the built in graphical settings appeal to me. For one thing, you cannot scale the piece sizes from with in the squares, so you have this really crowded look as each piece icon goes to the very edge of each square. Next, there's no way to adjust the width of the boarder around the board (should you want one). And finally, no option to use move-arrows instead of move-highlights.

Another problem for me is ICC seems to have way less actively playing members at my level (1700 - 1900). On ICC, I can log in and watch the search grid and not see an 1800 wanting a game for several minutes. On playchess you can just about always find a game at your level 24/7.

For me, its been a no-brainer. Playchess has got it all over ICC.

Playchess FTW. I've got active accounts on both ICC and Playchess, and for me the Playchess interface is just cleaner, better organized, and the board graphics are better.

I've spent quite some time trying to tweak the visual settings for the Dasher board, but I've come to realize none of the built in graphical settings appeal to me. For one thing, you cannot scale the piece sizes from with in the squares, so you have this really crowded look as each piece icon goes to the very edge of each square. Next, there's no way to adjust the width of the boarder around the board (should you want one). And finally, no option to use move-arrows instead of move-highlights.

Another problem for me is ICC seems to have way less actively playing members at my level (1700 - 1900). On ICC, I can log in and watch the search grid and not see an 1800 wanting a game for several minutes. On playchess you can just about always find a game at your level 24/7.

For me, its been a no-brainer. Playchess has got it all over ICC.

I used to play at WCN. I choose that one because it was the most sociable of them all. It actually felt like a chess club.

Admins and helpers used their real names, hence I always had the feeling I was dealing with real people.

Habitual trash talkers tended to not last long, and friends were easy to make.
The chess was not of a bad standard, with events lectures and broadcasts by Larry C. and Irina and Pascal Krush (nee Charbonneau), amongst others.

Although the membership never really got that high, those that did use WCN greatly appreciated it.

Then it was bought by ICC. I have no clue why they would want to do that. They merged it with USCL and created WCL.

WCL can be seen dying a slow death live as I write this.

It uses a dreadful interface, has moderators called "Thor" and such other nonsense, basically everything I joined WCN to avoid.

I was never a great fan of ICC, but was happy to know that internet chess allowed for people to enjoy many different types of site.

What has happened with ICC's acquisition of two sites and subsequent merging into one in it's own image, is to reduce that choice, and spoil a lot of peoples fun. Shame on them...

Actually, reading the above doesn't apportion any blame for events to the previous management of WCN.

This is not completely fair, as it was very poorly run and urgently needed to change. The last thing it needed however, was to change into WCL.

One of the things that astounds me is players complaining they cannot find a game on ICC at a certain rating level because they never see a game appear in the search grid.

There are plenty of people sitting on their hands doing the same thing you are doing - nothing!

If you want a game at a certain level, enter a seek and you will get a game, probably within several seconds. You certainly will not wait 'several minutes'. Don't do what everyone else does - nothing!

Do most people here understand German and Spanish? When I was on Playchess, those languages seemed to dominate all the tournament announcements as well as all official announcements.

And, all the tournament start times were stated in local time based somewhere in Central Europe. When visiting a chess site, I'd prefer to channel all my calculating skills toward chess positions -- not time-zone conversions.

Yes, the chat window comments from players were mostly in English -- although as to some of the things that Playchess opponents said to me in chat, I would have preferred if they had been in a language I couldn't understand. ("the ovens are waiting, kike," was my favorite.)

Anyway, at the risk of sounding like the Ugly American -- I still recall from 30 years ago hearing my boss who'd just visited a client in Finland complain in all seriousness, "It's a terrible country; no one speaks English! What is wrong with those people?" -- all the foreign-language announcements made me feel like a total outsider, which is the exact opposite of the sense of community and belonging I want to feel any time I a chess site. So I stopped playing there, and won't join Playchess again.

I play a lot in the engine room at playchess, and have found the guys there mostly speak English. One of the things I like most about internet chess is the international nature of it, so different languages come with the territory I guess.

As for the time, I am sure most sites use a standardised "server time", and if the server is in central Europe...

Playchess is a long way from perfect, but as far as I am concerned it's the best there is since the sad demise of WCN.

Chess federations claim that in some way they compete with on-line portals like ICC and Chessbase. To me all chess companies and federations look like complementary, but many do not share my view. More companies in chess, more potential sponsors, and chess promoters. I would not insult Chessbase or ICC, but would rather ask them to create new features that I like-language, browser… It should be noted that chess federations are organizing tournaments based on membership, registration fees, hotel room profits, and sponsors. Players become members so they could compete in tournaments sanctioned by federations. Example- USCF has about 80,000 members (at $25 / yr this is $2M/year). Multiply this by number of federations, add to it tournaments which are organized by independent organizers (like CCA or Grand-Slam ones), scholastic ones, and you’ll get how much is actually invested in tournaments. Pick a number $10M- $500M / yr. Multiply this by 10 years. Chess is not as poor as some may think. ICC reports 30,000 users ($50/yr, this is $1,5M/yr), and Playchess 215,000 users (probably they purchased Fritz over the last 5 years at about 50 €, this is about 10M €). Clearly, Chessbase has the largest number of readers as they publish daily news for many years. $1M or $10M per year could seem high, but this is “nothing” when you run the company and need to pay for operating expenses and salaries. Just proper content upgrade and server maintenance costs more than $1M. Those companies need to make money so they could hire players to do commentaries, instructional videos and sponsor tournaments. Ease with complains, and turn them into suggestions how to make their services even better. Mig’s site where “bitching” about everything is a source of sponsor insults. Look at the US Championship, where Mig called sponsors jerks, only because the internet connectivity caused problems. How much money and goodwill USCF lost in future sponsorship because of it? And companies speak with each other at conferences, industry meetings etc.

As a separate point, neither Chessbase nor ICC own live game technology. They basically go to tournament website, pick up chess moves from organizer sites and display them on their servers. There is a natural time delay, error prone manual process and only a few games could be shown this way. I am not sure whether the organizers like the fact that they invest millions in tournament prizes and organization, and spectators are following games on some other servers, where tournament sponsors are not promoted. There are only a few companies which have alternative live game products– DGT (wooden electronic boards developed 10 yrs ago) and Monroi (wireless portable electronic scorepads developed 2 yrs ago). Live broadcast depends on internet connectivity (no internet, no live games). Unless someone is ready to invest trillions of dollars in setting up internet cables around the world, organizers cannot provide it, but are dependent on local connections. Sensory boards and electronic scorepads were installed at the Euro 2007 in Dresden. While sensory boards did not work at all in the first two rounds (almost every world championship and Olympiad has the same problem), based on fundamental technology limitations, Monroi did work with no technical problems. On the other hand, some players (and TDs) need to be trained on how to use electronic notes, while no player training is required for sensory boards. There is no way for ICC or Chessbase to get live games, unless they get it from sensory boards or electronic scorepads (direct or copy it from tournament websites). In any case, there are needs for companies in chess. New product developments cost millions (usually between $1M to $50M or more). Efforts of chess companies (whether they provide boards, clocks, on-line chess or any other product) need to be respected, as they help federations, organizers and players. And we do not have many talented and valuable companies in chess… Just a few.

I guess that CEO’s of Chessbase, ICC, DGT, Monroi, Saitek, Excalibur as well as executive directors of some chess federations and major organizers manage multi-million budgets. Basically, FIDE invests just peanuts, when compared with the rest of the world (and in order to organize their World Cup for men and women). It is not clear to me why everyone blames FIDE for this and that, when they do not even have control over any federation or independent organizer. FIDE is really irrelevant. And why people are crying that chess does not attract $$, when there are hundreds of millions circulating (each year!). How much chess players spend on chess training material, trainers, travel to tournaments and chess gadgets? Let’s say $1,000 / player x 100,000 players = $100M. With advanced live game technology, tournament budgets could easily double. With educational value of chess, federation membership could easily double as well.

I like seeing the different languages on Playchess even if I can't understand them. That gives me a sense of belonging to a worldwide community and not just belonging to some little backward inbred society. Flyonthewall, I know you wanted to avoid the Ugly American thing but you certainly haven't helped refute that stereotype with your post. Pity.

Hey Mig- Did you make it out to the ILinois Open in Lombard outside of Chicago over labor day?? I see GM Mitkov took a beating from the locals.

Free lunches eh? Just out of interest, what are the yearly revenues of ICC Mig. Is there any serious money in online chess?

... and relating to the Poll, Playchess over ICC:
- superior UI
- more and more interesting GMs and games, I don't think Kasparov plays on ICC does he?
- broadcast of all major tournaments and indeed Yasser commentary is priceless.

Re the abuse: I both have a US and Dutch Playchess account and noticed that while using my US account the abuse was higher!

It's true that ICC has a much more US based user community and Playchess a European/ROW one.

... and relating to the Poll, Playchess over ICC:
- superior UI
- more and more interesting GMs and games, I don't think Kasparov plays on ICC does he?
- broadcast of all major tournaments and indeed Yasser commentary is priceless.

Re the abuse: I both have a US and Dutch Playchess account and noticed that while using my US account the abuse was higher!

It's true that ICC has a much more US based user community and Playchess a European/ROW one.

Within the last few days, new information has been posted on Peter Winston at the USCF website. As noted in some earlier posts, Peter Winston was a promising player who went missing and presumed dead in early 1978. Here is the link:

http://beta.uschess.org/frontend/magazine_124_327.php

... and relating to the Poll, Playchess over ICC:
- superior UI
- more and more interesting GMs and games, I don't think Kasparov plays on ICC does he?
- broadcast of all major tournaments and indeed Yasser commentary is priceless.

Re the abuse: I both have a US and Dutch Playchess account and noticed that while using my US account the abuse was higher!

It's true that ICC has a much more US based user community and Playchess a European/ROW one.

Quote from Mark:

"One of the things that astounds me is players complaining they cannot find a game on ICC at a certain rating level because they never see a game appear in the search grid.

There are plenty of people sitting on their hands doing the same thing you are doing - nothing!

If you want a game at a certain level, enter a seek and you will get a game, probably within several seconds. You certainly will not wait 'several minutes'. Don't do what everyone else does - nothing!"

You must be some sort of sales rep for ICC. the point is there are so many more people wanting games on playchess, that you don't have to go making your own seek challenges if you dont want to. On ICC, such is not the case. Indeed I have made my own seek challenges on ICC and found that I only got much lower rated players or sandbaggers accepting the challenge. When you attempt to avoid this with formulas, you end up back at square one waiting several minutes for someone to accept.

Get the picture, Mr. Sales rep?

I opine that to get the loan from creditors you should have a firm motivation. But, one time I've got a term loan, just because I was willing to buy a car.

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