"So in Europe, we had empires. Everyone had them - France and Spain and Britain and Turkey! The Ottoman Empire, full of furniture for some reason." -- Eddie Izzard
Any excuse to drop some Izzard. I'm still in disbelief that the latest episode of the ongoing courtroom drama that is the chess world will apparently invalidate the recently completed European and Women's European Individual Championships. (Won by Tomashevsky and T. Kosintseva, respectively, in Montenegro and St. Petersburg, respectively.) A lawsuit by the Turkish Chess Federation against the European Chess Union started in 2007 has concluded in favor of the TCF. According to TCF honcho and capital letter enthusiast Ali Nihat YAZICI, this means the 2009 championships will have to be replayed.
The exact complaints of the 2007 lawsuit are not made explicit, but as described in the ChessBase article by Yazici, it was over discriminatory practices regarding the awarding of the rights to host events. (Turkey, like Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan, is listed as an Asian nation by the UN Statistics people but they have been treated as European nations by other organizations. They are all members of the Council of Europe, for example.) As right as they may be, invalidating the results of two enormous events like this and trying to host replacements promptly is insane.
For its part, the ECU reports the result but says it's not all over yet. Let's hope reason prevails for once and, while giving the TCF its financial due and appropriate consideration in the future, respect the results of the two completed Championships. There is little doubt the players who qualified from Budva and St. Petersburg would have their own legal challenges if these events are disappeared post-facto.
And these idiots want to take their totally non-European country into the EU?
@lacomm: Wait a minute, don't blame an entire country for the outings of one "capital letter enthusiast"! [Of course there are other arguments why Turkey should, or should not join the EU, to be discussed elsewhere ...]
@Mig: "giving the TCF its due and consideration in the future ..."
Chessbase links to Yazici's initial open letter (from October 2007!): Remarkably, "Turkey" (i.e. Yazici) complains that they don't get to organize major chess events, and at the same time proudly states how many such events they already organized.
I would say other federations should also get their turns ... . It is almost as if Elista was complaining when they offer to organize an event, and another bid is accepted.
Those Turks, they manage to pollute everything which was created be4. These nomads live in other’s land, destroying the native population of modern-day Turkey, Greeks and Armenians, destroying their cultural byzantine heritage, occupying Cyprus and stiring up troubles in Balkans. I wish this rogue country could be cancelled. Why on earth this islamistic state with undisguised Antisemitism, Armenophobia, Greekophobia must be considered European? Why on Earth a country, denying the Genocide of Greeks, the Genoicde of Armenians, devastating the Greek Minor Asia and Western Armenia? can impose it’s decisions to the Western civilizations. God damn these barbarians. And God damn our European Christian political correctness, if we let them do all this.
And God damn you and your idiotic racist hate speech, Grigorios.
You dont understand , it is better to keep them close and let the civilized culture exchange do the work.
It is not rejecting countries that you can have influence on them.
And besides ,there is no country in this world free of barbarism, cruelty is a plague that affects the entire human race .
And there is no such thing as European Christian political correctness , only in your mind.
Yes indeed. I'm from the part of the World where for historical
reasons major part of the folk cultural heritage contains anti-Turkish
sentiments. But the strength and beauty of the new European model
depends on exactly burying that darker past in order to move
forward. Bigotry is a very dangerous thing, far worse than just an
ordinary display of bad manners.
Otherwise it's hard to argue the case on its merits if no details are
revealed.
D.
I suggest "graecophobia". "Greekophobia" is really a very strange word; it is evident that it does not exist.
A complicated political gambit line. The chessbase article mentions a personal feud between Yazici and Kutin. Probably the strained relation between ECU and FIDE plays a role, too.
The legal details would be interesting. Did the ECU decisions disregard their own regulations? Or was it based on a broader "fair play" argument?
Does anyone recall that Yazici was a key member of the 'right move' campaign to dethrone Kirsan? And if I am not mistaken, many chess fans and players supported that campaign. Now certainly many a peasant could rule better than King Kirsan, but perhaps we should admit that Yazici (and other members of that campaign) were after all just politicians...and not of the best sort either...
@Knallo
I believe Hellenophobia has already been coined.
I believe the Greek nation should be "canceled" for violently taking over the Persian Empire in the fourth century B.C., and for destroying the Phoenician city of Tyre.
"Did the ECU decisions disregard their own regulations?"
In that case the ECU should be warmly embraced by FIDE, right? It would be hard to except anything else from a governing body closely tied to FIDE - consistently making decisions contradictional to their own regulations is sort of a trademark identificator for most FIDEish things.
:o)
@Manu
!!!
@Dimi
"But the strength and beauty of the new European model depends on exactly burrying that darker past in order to move
forward."
Very nice.
In addition - as we all know - there might be some slight economic advantages of larger markets with lower trading restrictions, resulting in more individual wealth and freedom....
....which even an increasing european burocracy can't completly neutralize.
I don't agree with the dumb joke:
Question: "What is the difference between China and Turky?"
Answer: "China will join the EU first."
At the long term I see Turky as an EU member with economic and cultural advantages for both sides. I might be more optimistic then many of my german compatriots.
Also, for those considering Turkey is not part of Europe, may one remind which evenement marks the start of Modern Age in Europe (with the exception of Spain, this one being an obvious one) Little hint: it involves what became Turkey with the time
"they manage to pollute everything which was created be4. "
The only opening I kow where Be4 is a normal move is the QGA with e4 and Nf6, and I'm not even sure it is that good anymore. I think the point you are trying to make is that the Turks refuted this? Surely your rage is a little out of proportion? It's just a game.
Easy: The Modern Age in Europe starts with the introduction of coffee.
"But the strength and beauty of the new European model depends on exactly burrying that darker past in order to move forward."
You will have a very hard time proving the existence of any of those two.
There are some currently unfashionable Semi-Slav lines (I'm thinking of b5-b4 lines popular in the 1970s) in which Be4 is normal.
"These nomads live in other’s land."
Yeah right, Greeks and Armenians are the native population of modern-day Turkey. Besides, it is ironic that someone accuses Turks of living in other nations' native land in this US based website.
"occupying Cyprus"
Yeah, we should have allowed you to murder all the Turks on the island, so you could unite the island with mainland Greek.
"Why on earth this islamistic state with undisguised Antisemitism, Armenophobia, Greekophobia must be considered European?"
Antisemitism? Turks are not Anti-semite. And for Armenophobia and Greekophobia, all I can say is I'm laughing
"Why on Earth a country, denying the Genocide of Greeks, the Genoicde of Armenians, devastating the Greek Minor Asia and Western Armenia?"
Lol. Now we have also the Genocide of Greeks? I bet you can find 10 more genocides that Turks committed in 30 seconds.
"God damn these barbarians."
I sense only one barbarian here.
C'est magnifique, mais c'est pas les echecs.
"occupying Cyprus"
Yeah, we should have allowed you to murder all the Turks on the island, so you could unite the island with mainland Greek.
Bozkurt is lying.
Grigorios may be hysterical, but the Cyprus example is manifestly true. Turkey is the sole occupier of another Euro state since WWII, with northern Cyprus transformed into a huge slave camp under Denktash (followed by Talat, who seems to be an adept at both spoiling reunification chances and ruining Turkey's standing in the FI series). The territory has been cleansed of a huge number of its original Greek Cypriots, and the only nation that acknowledges northern Cyprus as a legitimate world government is -- you guessed it -- Turkey.
"Besides, it is ironic that someone accuses Turks of living in other nations' native land in this US based website."
No irony whatsoever. The only thing keeping the regime alive is US military aid, and the majority of Turkish Cypriots now prefer reunification over a sham state. The occupation must end sooner or later, and the US can definitely play a role in making it happen.
So enough lies and hatred, guys. Back to chess AT ONCE!
You know how to call people liar but you don't know much about the subject.
First of all. I have to ask you since when Cyprus is a European state? Here is a timeline from 1955 to 1975 from BBC.
1955 - Greek Cypriots begin guerrilla war against British rule. The guerrilla movement, the National Organisation of Cypriot Combatants (EOKA), wants enosis (unification) with Greece. British authorities arm a paramilitary police force made up of Turkish Cypriots.
1956 - Archbishop Makarios, head of enosis campaign, deported to the Seychelles.
1959 - Archbishop Makarios returns and is elected president.
1960 - Cyprus gains independence after Greek and Turkish communities reach agreement on a constitution. Treaty of Guarantee gives Britain, Greece and Turkey the right to intervene. Britain retains sovereignty over two military bases.
1963 - Makarios raises Turkish fears by proposing constitutional changes which would abrogate power-sharing arrangements. Inter-communal violence erupts. Turkish side withdraws from power-sharing.
1964 - United Nations peacekeeping force set up. Turkish Cypriots withdraw into defended enclaves.
1974 - Military junta in Greece backs coup against Makarios, who escapes. Within days Turkish troops land in north. Greek Cypriots flee their homes.
Coup collapses. Turkish forces occupy third of the island, enforce partition between north and south.
Glafcos Clerides, president of the House of Representatives, becomes president until Makarios returns in December.
1975 - Turkish Cypriots establish independent administration, with Rauf Denktash as president. Denktash and Clerides agree population exchange.
Turkey intervened thanks to the Treaty of Guarantee. This one is from Wikipedia : "The Treaty of Guarantee is a treaty between the Republic of Cyprus, Greece, Turkey and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland promulgated in 1960. Article I bans Cyprus from participating in any political union or economic union with any other state. Article II requires the other parties to guarantee the independence, territorial integrity and security of Cyprus."
Finding similarities between Denktas and Talat, is nonsense and shows that you don't know much. Denktas and Talat have very different opinions for the resolution of the conflict and they don't like each other at all.
"The only thing keeping the regime alive is US military aid, and the majority of Turkish Cypriots now prefer reunification over a sham state."
US military aid? Where do you live my friend?
About reunification, it was true I can only say. Turks, said yes in the public vote to reunification but Cypriot Greeks said no. Result? European Union accepted Greek Cypriots as a member state and Turkish side got nothing. In the last election, about one week ago, political parties against reunification won the election with a big margin. So, try to learn before calling people liar.
This discussion is sick, twisted, sad, hateful, angry, pathetic, crazy, weak, immature, stupid, and a lot of other negatives. Are you really chess players? Ugh. I hope not. It would be nice if you go away. Go to Antarctica, fight each other on an ice shelf that will hopefully break off, float away and melt. As you drown, you can continue clawing at each other’s throats, screaming and spitting your stupid hatreds. The fish can then eat your bodies and hungry people can eat the fish. At least then you will have been of some use to the world. Ugh. Chess players? Really embarrassing.
Can you believe this guy? You can keep on lying, but try to at least do it about chess instead of Internet cherry-picking to defend an indefensible and bankrupt occupation (which continues to enjoy support and aid from the US). You can cheer the recent election of the National Unity fascists, but until the situation is resolved Turkey will be blocked from the EU.
Just insist that Kramnik was never world champion -- THEN you might be onto something.
Easy now, Luke. Go towel off and relax.
turkish people being european? someone needs to look in the mirror. If those silly Turkish think they are European, then hell, why not add all the central asian countries? Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan,Kyrgyzstan and maybe even Kazakhstan. Most of the people over there are descendent's of Turkish nomads and have tons of similarities (language, skin color, ethnicity). Turkey is not European, just like those countries. Besides, Asia is starting to become very powerful, it might be better this way.
Thank you! Far more elegant indeed.
We are all one family.
Ok. All toweled off. All relaxed.
One....
Two....
Three.
You should try it too.
Gusfraba...
Turkey delendum est.
Well I guess you just can't deal with the facts. Sorry for you dude.
For the present discussion, it is just completely irrelevant whether Turkey is, should be or should become part of Europe based on geographic, political, economical, cultural, historical, (did I forget anything?) considerations.
The [main, original] topic is about chess! And, like it or not, in chess and other sports Turkey is "officially" part of Europe, just like several other countries where one may be surprised and/or put a question mark: all ex-Soviet Caucasian countries, Russia (including all of Siberia), Israel [because they have even more serious troubles (euphemism but what would be the right word?) with their Asian Arabic neighbors].
But the discussion has drifted away, partly because it is hard to comment on-topic - essential information such as the court's motivation and justification is still not available.
Turkey should be booted out of the ECU.
Back in the days of William of Orange, the Campbells tried to eradicate the MacDonalds (no flames, please, that was a highly simplified summary). Thus, the MacDonalds came to hate the Campbells, and it is amazing how prevalent that hatred still is today.
A friend of mine (a Campbell), upon hearing for the first time of this bit of history, remarked something to the effect of "Now I know why I always hated going to McDonalds (the fast-food hamburger chain). I never really knew why!"
Geez. The passions related in this thread bear witness to our unity as humans. Humans think similarly, even if they are radically different culturally, politically, or whatever parameter you want to use.
But does anyone hate Ivanchuck? I didn't think so.
CO :)
Maybe his ex-wife?
Good point Hardy. As far as I remember she said that it was impossible to live with him because he is so obsessed with and addicted to chess, completely living in his own world. Whether this implies hatred is another story.
But incidentally, that's exactly what makes Chucky fascinating to most chess fans (relative outsiders). But we only have to deal with him [or have the pleasure doing so] from time to time - chess games, press conferences, interviews ... .
BTW, at Nalchik Ivanchuk initially refused to speak English during press conferences. This wasn't considered big deal ("well, it's Chucky ...") but maybe here reactions would have been different for most other players!?
I do not dislike Ivanchuk. In fact, I like him. However, there seems to be some sort of Ivanchuk fetish going on here.
I think there's a bridge in Kazakhstan somewhere which is supposed to mark the boundary between Europe and Asia, is there not?
Thomas
Sometimes up to 40% of posts in a single thread are yours.
And you don't need to respond to this, because it could mean an additional post that is, as so many before, not worth consideration. Just something to think about.
Hello Clubfoot -
I don't get it. Thomas seems ok.
Forgot Yazici... He is porn acter...
Luke, I think the curent discussion about Ivanchuk may be my responsibility. I offered an observation on April 22 in the "Slow Going in Nalchik" thread. I reiterated it above somewhat as a point.
I respectfully disagree with the opinion that Fischer was the weaker player than Karpov, whether history decides so or not. But then I (we?) were there. There won't be anyone who can say such when future opinion prevails. Karpov was a machine, but then so was Fischer. It is irrelevant who would have won that match -- either way, chess history (at least a decade anyway) would be vastly different today had it been played. (I shudder when I think that a Fischer-Kasparov first-to-ten-wins match may actually have taken place as well! WOW!)
CO
Why can't we all just get along?
You all sound as crazy as Sam Sloan.
I hit enter too quickly. Heh.
thank you
CO -
Your comment: "I respectfully disagree with the opinion that Fischer was the weaker player than Karpov..."
Me too. I would disagree with that opinion also. I think Fischer was a stronger player than Karpov. However, he showed weakness when he avoided a match with Karpov. This is how I said it in my May 1 post:
"3. Fischer was wrong (weak) to avoid a match with Karpov."
All cleared up I hope.
TURKS WILL NEVER EVER BE SLAVES OF EUROPEANS!!!
Ok. Good for YOU!
In the interests of clarity, you will note that I did not assign the opinion of Fischer's playing strength to anyone in particular. Playing strength aside, we all have seen the evidence that Fischer was weak in other areas.
CO
Oooops. Sorry. You were responding to a comment I made, so I thought you were responding to me. My mistake.
Anyway, we both agree that Fischer was stronger than Karpov. He was just a weakie when it came to giving Karpov a man-to-man match.
Fischer would beat Spiderman *and* Batman.
Ha ha Turks are slaves of Europeans already. You provide cheap labor and can't join the club.
Mr Fischer is deceased. Therefore he "would have" beaten X and Y. The playing strength of corpses is notably diminished.
Seems to me I remember somebody claiming to have been channelling some dead grandmaster, and was playing a game "as" him. Anyone find this familiar?
CO
Back on thread ... : Not mentioned by Mig, but according to the court decision there were also irregularities in the bidding procedure for the European Youth Campionship (awarded to Italy) and European Club Cup (awarded to FYR Macedonia); hence bidding should start anew for both events.
To (in)validate the Turkish (Yazici's) claim concerning "discriminatory practices", I checked how many times they organized previous events since 2009. For the European adult championship, I take men's and women's competitions separately, while they were sometimes held at the same location. Here we go:
European Chess Championship - Turkey 5* (out of 20)
European Youth Championship - Turkey 1*
European Club Cup - Turkey 2*
So that's a total of 8 events out of 40, is this really discriminatory practice?
So grammarfreak, can you tell me something?
When did it become acceptable to use ...
"then" instead of "than?"
"between" instead of "among?"
"scan" instead of "skim?"
(among others)
CO
All this pales in comparison to the current craze here in this country: ignorance of the plural form -
cars NOT car's
offers NOT offer's
etc.
Erroneous grammar is a crime against the English language. I urge all right-thinking citizens to loudly denounce all perpetrators(NOT perpetrator's).
This band of the righteous can become known as the Grammar Police and will have Twitter's destruction in its charter.
The most righteous among you will notice the split infinitive. Like in Orwell's 1984, you must be willing to denounce YOURSELF if necessary.
Only if you take an exceptionally narrow view of language. "Would" here can easily be interpreted as shorthand for the hypothetical "If Fischer were alive today, he would..."
...denounce macuga for his misuse of the English language". By the way, it is by no means certain that Batman and Spiderman are of negligible playing strength. We know how strong computers are, and Spiderman in particular has permanent access to extensive Web resources.
Your are becoming lazy in your blog, long before you wrote even twice a day, now several days and nothing. If you have other priorities shut down your blog and maka a magazine!
Another of my favorites is people who mix up "its" and "it's"
It's like not using its brain.
CO
Yea , they should be in the same gheto than dyslexic people , close to the jews and latins , but far away from children.
Grammarfreak,
There are a few different, correct ways to punctuate your intended sentences, but the way you have done so isn't among them.
E.g., you write:
"cars NOT car's"
Your "cars" and "car's" should be in quotes, and your "NOT car's" should be set off by either a comma or parentheses.
You almost got "perpetrators(NOT perpetrator's)" right, but you really do need a space between your first "s" and the open parenthesis.
Don't forget quotation marks in phrases like the following: "become known as the 'Grammar Police'..."
Finally, please don't be too hasty in denouncing people who make grammatical errors!
Punctuation Police is a shining example. There is hope for us all. Continue your good work!
"We know how strong computers are, and Spiderman in particular has permanent access to extensive Web resources."
Argh. Get off the stage.
C'mon, MD! That was one of the better ones here for a long time! Glad someone else appreciated it!
CO