MTel 2010 Canceled

"some even stated that the money would came from the taxpayers."

'Some' seems to include the official match homepage, which mentions the following sponsors, in that order: Ministry of Physical Education and Sports, MTel, Spectrum Net.

'Some others' deny that there is government money involved - of those, Manu is relatively irrelevant (and in any case, uninformed). Topalov also said so in an interview on the same match homepage, is he uninformed or is he lying?

"Everybody knows that [the reason why there was no 'decent' bid from India] , but wont tell."
'Everybody' should include Manu, who claims to know a lot ... so why don't you tell us?

Misha,

If you go, I'm sure we'd all appreciate your review of "I Was Bent Over And Violated in Elista" if it's still playing in the lobby.

Your level of understanding still surprises me sometimes , Topalov wasn't lying , some of the sponsors contributes with money and others with logistic and organization , it is you who need to prove that the money come from the taxpayers like you stated , or where you lying? or in any case uninformed?
I read weird excuses but not a single explanation about why is that India couldn't bid for Anand , i guess is a mystery.

I always had the feeling that there was some big incident in your past , Is that why you don´t want anyone mentioning the word ¨toilet¨?

Well , finally , that´s the point ! if Vishy went with this is because he is happy with the terms (like you said) , that would be logical.
Questions about India´s bid are only made after hearing people complain about Topalov playing as local.

Of course you know and understand everything, are you paid by Danailov and involved in the match organization?
Then you can clarify the difference between "Sponsors" and "Partners" - my interpretation would be that the latter provide (raletively minor) contributions to logistics and organization. And even in that case, the match would cost some Bulgarian tax money (or European one because Bulgaria depends on subsidies from Brussels).
On the other hand, the ministry is the first one to be mentioned - only a question of the English alphabet?

On the discussion about an (additional/parallel) bid from India: the Bulgarian organizers (re)started it, saying that Anand could have easily raised a few more millions, and should have done so. This followed on earlier statements that "FIDE relies on us, because India wouldn't be up to the task of organizing the match" ... . For the rest, I agree with the comments by Kazzak and mishanp.

You stated that the WCH would be payed by Bulgarians taxpayers , but now you are saying that it would cost ¨some¨ Bulgarian tax money , well congratulations genious, all sportive events cost some money for their host , that investement usually returns in prestige ,turism, propaganda and a big list of etc .
Your accusations were unfounded and biased , shaggy ,deal with that.

In my previous post, "even in that case" referred to the ministry being a partner rather than a sponsor. And I wonder how much British tax money went into the Kasparov-Kramnik match, how much Swiss tax money into Kramnik-Leko, how much German tax money into Anand-Kramnik ... .

But according to the match homepage, the Ministry of Physical Education and Sports is one of the main sponsors, if not THE main one. Why would they leave such an impression if it's all wrong?

As usual, I won't convinve a Topailov fanboy, so let's move to what this thread is actually/supposedly about: What do you think of the cancellation of MTel and the mess it creates for the Grand Slam (in Mig's and my opinion)? Or maybe rather: How do you argue this away?

The government guaranteed the event and was the determinant factor on FIDE accepting the bid , even without considering alphabetical order they should go first in the list.

"Are you capable of understanding that being a ¨sponsor¨ of something not necesary means that you are throwing money on it ?"
Yes I am - in general. But I wonder how your definitions 1-4 apply to the given event; #s 1, 2 and 4 actually refer to "somebody" rather than "something".

"your claim was that the money would come exclusively from Bulgarian taxpayers"
Shaggy to twist my words like this - I mentioned all three sponsors, in the order given on the match homepage.

"The government guaranteed the event and was the determinant factor on FIDE accepting the bid"
Finally something that makes sense: FIDE, headed by a dubious politician (Ilyumzhinov), was happy to award the event to Bulgaria, because it was "sponsored"/ supported/ promoted by a dubious politician (Borisov). Just a bit strange that Borisov then passes the honors on to a ministry.

Everybody knows that , but wont tell.¨

Because it is not a priority.

Because like stated by some before , playing in Bulgaria is better for Anand than what others suggest , that´s why.
Another option would be that not even his own people are willing to invest an euro on Vishy , but i´m not buying that.

Exactly. The initiative and the responsibility naturally lie with the Topalov team.

¨Meanwhile he is also issuing ridiculous (read ludicrous) pronouncements about handshakes and draws.¨
Pronouncements about handshakes and draws?
Could you please back up your statement?
Has it something to do with Danailov´s announcement of applying the Sofia Rules unilaterally or is it just your (ludicrous)imagination?

What happened in that toilet ?Don´t be shy , you can tell us.

Manu,
Be careful.
As you reminded us in an earlier post, children might be reading this blog.

Did you read greg´s post about rape in Elista ?
Maybe it is you who need to be careful.

I´m sure Thomas is dying to read that , thx.
:)

Thanks, you probably know or at least know more than those who cannot read Bulgarian - still wonder what Manu knows all the way away in Argentina ... .

In that case, the official webpage seems to exaggerate the role of the government, or maybe not really: total administrative/organizing costs are a non-trivial 600,000 Euro. And it's clear (and not denied, but proudly stated by Topamanailov) that the Bulgarian government played a key role in outcompeting other bidders. We should remember this when Manu will make his next creative attempt to depict Kramnik as a puppet of Putin.

BTW, Dennis Monokroussos (http://thechessmind.net) has the best chessic April's fools day joke so far.

¨still wonder what Manu knows all the way away in Argentina ... .¨

Well , apparently a lot more than you , shaggy.

:D

By all means post some links - there's no problem getting a rough translation on-line. As far as I can see this is the budget of the ministry mentioned as a sponsor (in PGF): http://www.minfin.bg/document/7237:2

Page 24, point 4 is about hosting international sporting events and specifically mentions Topalov-Anand as the main confirmed example. The total budget for 2010 is 5 million lev which seems to work out to a bit over 2.5 million euro. Though clearly the money's not just for Topalov-Anand.

I'll add, I don't see any problem with the government supporting the event - it's just odd of anyone to claim tax payers aren't partially involved in funding the match (and yes, listing the ministry as a sponsor does imply significant funding, even if that isn't the case).

Make that PDF. By the way, surely the women's section of this event could be successfully merged with the chess MTel Masters!?? http://www.mtelbeachmasters.com/news/2009/en

Agreed with your last paragraph (and thanks as usual for the previous ones). Nothing wrong with government support, but "sponsoring" is something else. Sponsoring would also be acceptable, but then "they" (all of them) should just say so, rather than leaving things open: Topalov making a clear statement that there is no tax money involved, but the match homepage suggesting something else - whom should we believe, we cannot believe both of them?

BTW as you asked about tickets, I just found the info on the match homepage - by coincidence because it is rather hidden:
http://www.anand-topalov.com/en/tickets.html
Tickets cost 10BGN (5EUR) - sold locally, no online purchase

" And, manu, who am I to believe, you or my lying eyes?"

I really don't know , but that interview has been discussed to death (see also Mig's comments on it , or the original article at chessvibes) and there is not a single pronouncement about handshakes on it.

¨Meanwhile he is also issuing ridiculous (read ludicrous) pronouncements about handshakes and draws.¨??

Please be patience while posting , so your ludicrous conclusions dont have to be suffered twice.

Again , why don't you go read some articles around and get a little bit more informed?
It is hard to know what are you talking about when you use words like "meanwhile" to things that happened 2 years ago and involving different persons:

"Meanwhile he is also issuing ridiculous (read ludicrous) pronouncements about handshakes and draws.¨??

In that case i guess you also find a ludicrous pronouncement the first time Morozevich refused to shake hands with Topa ?

Please be more patience , don't trow your half-digested conclusions here without doing some research 1st.

Well done for finding the (brief!) ticket info. I wonder if you need to show a passport... or declare your chessninja alias? :)

That screening will already take place at the Bulgarian border - a British or Russian passport may cause problems, an Argentinian one should be fine. If you go, let us know whether you are allowed to enter the country! ,:)

Thomas, The Ministry of Sport is funded greatly from the lottery -- TOTO in Bg. These do not qualify exactly as tax payers funds, no? Also, a chunk of tax payers funds go for almost every freaking sport installation, infrastructure, etc. for any major event these days, everywhere -- it is considered an investment in the community, or whatever other bureaucratic language is used. But why am I telling you all this? Somewhere after the 99-th dorkish comment on this forum, you might have had to switch on that round bulb that's placed your shoulders for no apparent reason.

D.

Ok, if the ministry is entirely funded through a lottery (no way non-Bulgarians would know) it's not tax money, it still is government money ... . All I criticized (or, if you want to, merely pointed out) is the apparent contradiction:
1) Topalov (and Manu) denied that there is government money involved.
2) The match homepage mentions the ministry as a main sponsor.

Even if the government contribution (which seems to be substantial) goes into organizational costs and not into the prize fund, it still means that the match - in its present form - couldn't happen without government support? And it shouldn't be forgotten that the Bulgarian bid was upgraded to discourage or outcompete other bids - hence, to prevent or avoid a match on neutral or maybe Indian ground.

I am not the only one who would have preferred a match on neutral ground - that aside, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with government support, this just shouldn't be denied or hidden.

Here I was ironic, reacting to mishanp's irony (someone posting critical comments about Topailov here might not be welcome to watch the match!?).

A Russian passport being a problem wouldn't be a stereotype of the relatively distant past (you hint at the 1940's), but refers to quite recent Bulgarian comments such as "Russian influence tried to prevent the Topalov-Kamsky match from taking place" or "Topalov was robbed in Elista". Similarly (while beyond influence or control of the Bulgarian organizers) Manu wrote here that Karpov shouldn't become FIDE president because he's Russian ... .

British had multiple connotations: Nigel Short is British, mishanp is British, and I also had other sports events in mind where some British (or rather English) wouldn't be welcome, and border screening is temporarily reestablished even within the Schengen zone (which normally doesn't have any border controls these days) - talking about high-risk football events where efforts are made to keep hooligans out of the country. Sometimes it seems to me that Topailov supporters consider critical comments on their heroes worse than football hooliganism ... .

Finally on the role of the ministry of sports (in any country): Yes they should support their athletes, but IMO primarily those who really need it, not those who already earn a comfortable living or more from sports by other means. It goes without saying that corresponding sums per person are one or several orders of magnitude lower than what might go into the Topalov-Anand match.

"The Bulgarian ministry is not contributing to the prize fund".

I just wanted to add this interview from the Bulgarian Minister of Sports a few days ago: http://www.dnevnik.bg/intervju/2010/03/30/881036_svilen_neikov_shte_finansirame_vsiako_domakinstvo_na/

Google's version:
"For the match with Veselin Topalov Anand for World Chess Championship again Ministry will pay the two million prize money?

- Ministry will participate, but not the full amount. It is unclear how much, because there will be sponsorship funds".

Reading through various stories on Bulgarian websites the thing you notice is that Dimi & Manu (an honorary Bulgarian) are completely representative of the level of debate in the comments under the articles. This is a good example: http://tinyurl.com/ydk98jy (there was another article that in the main text had "Kramnik, known for his love of toilets,..."). I guess it's just the normal inferiority complex you often find in smaller countries with powerful neighbours. Having also read a lot of Russian chess forums the hatred is sadly unrequited. In any case, you can see Danailov's words are targeted at his audience.

Thanks for digging out Bulgarian sources, once again it seems that there are different "PR strategies" for Bulgarian and foreign/global audiences - Chessdom sometimes translates the former into English ... .

Let me see if I understand: "Borisov guarantees the prize fund" actually means "We still(!!) don't know how much the corporate sponsors are willing or able to contribute, the government will take care of the rest"!? If there was, or will be a special lottery in the first half of this year, it could indicate that they would otherwise have a problem to honor the commitments made?

"I guess it's just the normal inferiority complex you often find in smaller countries with powerful neighbours."
Hmm, while I may be a genuine honorary Dutch (having lived in the country for more than 10 years) I never noticed something similar on Dutch chess forums ... .

End of sarcasm mode

Misha NP, in absolutely every language, in every country, I can dig out forums where some of the participants have IQ below room temperature (try YouTube) and a foul language to match – this is a good source to practice your low level, street comprehension in various languages and find words that are not seen even in the dictionaries, but not much else. Unfortunately, on much graver and more global matters than Chess you see the public discourse in most societies that I am familiar with following similar trajectory (check the CNN commentaries below the articles). But if you want to paint a picture that singularly portrays the people of one particular country as complete idiots while you Misha NP and Thomas (The German) are the princes of perfection and purity of thought, then do so. I will not argue at that level. Also, don't you find it a bit childish to put so much emphasis on a nationality – you will never hear me talk about generalities about "The Indians", "The Germans", "The English"… Also, if I'm a fan of a particular athlete take Drogba or Maradona, that doesn't make me either Côte d'Ivoire-ian or Argentinian. You really lower don't come off as very sensible with that tone.

D.

"Guys,why you care so much who pay the match?"

I don't - I've no problem with government funding. A couple of people did decide to claim there was no tax payer money involved (presumably because it's better PR, or easier to attack Anand!?), so I thought it was worth checking if that's true - and it's not, if the Bulgarian Minister of Sport's to be believed... It's true about lottery funding, by the way, but it makes up less than 50% of the ministry's budget.

" Topalov (and Manu) denied that there is government money involved."

Please quote Veselin or me saying that , if you can't you should stop posting here for at least a month for being such a disgusting liar.

I partly agree the forums, though it's a bit odd to find the comments under articles on chess (or actually in the articles themselves). I suppose the point should be that it's weird to find Danailov and Topalov conducting themselves publicly at the level of anonymous internet comments. But we've long since become accustomed to that.

" Reading through various stories on Bulgarian websites the thing you notice is that Dimi & Manu (an honorary Bulgarian) are completely representative of the level of debate in the comments under the articles."

The fact that you need to mention and attack me in your posts and not the other way @ speaks clearly of your own " level of debate" .
;)

Thx for quoting me , but Where does it says (or even meant) that there wouldnt be government money involved?
Cos i don't see it anywhere.
;)
Thomas if you had some honor you should stop posting here for the time stipulated.

It's a matter of honor for me to clarify one thing - I may also speak on mishanp's behalf: Whenever I write "the Bulgarians" (in the given or a similar context), in the first instance I mean those involved in organizing the match. Secondly, they leave the impression that the whole country is behind them!? I have no way to check this, mishanp went through Bulgarian websites and apparently didn't find dissenting views - there could be three reasons:
1) everyone agrees competely with Topailov and colleagues
2) people don't dare to post dissenting views, not even anonymously
3) critical comments are censored away.

I must indirectly refer to Toiletgate (after all this is the reason why some people don't like the idea of a match in Bulgaria), specifically to Arne Moll's review of "On the Edge in Elista" (the Bulgarian book on the match):
http://tinyurl.com/yjjgmus
[a bit confusing to read, back then Chessvibes was bilingual Dutch-English]
"p. 119 [After checking some opinions on web forums about the 'scandal']: Bulgarian forums of course expressed support, but I was amazed to see that even in Russian forums lots of people thought sensibly and didn’t blindly accept Kramnik’s position. [When the Bulgarians support Topalov, it's normal, but when Russians don't all support Kramnik, they're 'sensible'.]"
Later Arne Moll concludes "It’s not about cables, it’s not about bathrooms, it’s not even about proving who’s right in the end – it’s about getting even with those evil Russians."

Anyone may consider him biased, but IMO the - numerous - examples from the book he gives speak for themselves.

Last one (sarcasm mode turned on again): Apparently you distinguish between tax money and government money, seemingly suggesting that the Bulgarian government has other sources of income besides taxes - corruption and/or subsidies from Brussels. You may actually be right ... .

@sharkman: I think we have a right to know where the money is coming from, or at least Topalov should say the truth. Bulgarian tax payers also should know, even if they don't have to agree - obviously I also don't always agree on how my tax money is spent.

" Topalov (and Manu) denied that there is government money involved."
Please quote Veselin or me saying that , if you can't you should stop posting here for at least a month for being such a disgusting liar.
This post will hunt you until you admit you were wrong or apologize in some way for lying.

Manu | March 31, 2010 7:56 PM | Reply

Everybody asked about where the money for a WCH match in Bulgaria would came from , some even stated that the money would came from the taxpayers.
Well , this is the answer , from legal sponsorship , like it should be.

[maybe should write again in Spanish if you have problems expressing yourself in English, and actually didn't mean what you wrote?]

Topalov in an interview posted on the match homepage:
Q Does the prize fund consists of government money?
Topalov: No, those those money are from private sponsors, but the guarantee from the Prime Minister of Bulgaria Mr. Boiko Borisov, whom I am very grateful, was very important.

Your turn again to do Copy-Paste

Don´t blame yourself , you know what they say: even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day , once in my case cos im a digital one.

Don't we have a right to know where the money is coming from? Imagine the match was sponsored by the weapons industry, Mafia or Al Qaida (not implying that it is), should we also lean back saying "Danailov did a fine job raising money, we shouldn't ask any questions"?
But the issue isn't whether government support is good or bad, just the fact that Bulgarian organizers and their fans make mixed statements about it. I didn't do any enquiry beyond looking at the match homepage (mishanp did, doing a fine job) ... .
Manu/Dimi didn't defend but start a wild counterattack, calling me shaggy, a dork, a liar and - apparently worst of all - a German. I fully agree that this is unnecessary!

Last but not least - as this thread is technically about the cancellation of MTel: An enormous (playjunior and I think ridiculous) amount of money is spent on two players. Well, maybe their seconds get a certain piece of the cake - are there unwritten rules such as "seconds should earn 10% of the prize money"? But as available money can be spent only once, four or five 'virtual' MTel participants lose potential income. Is this the future of chess (sponsoring) - make the rich even richer, too bad for the rest of the world??
And here Danailov was clearly lying: as late as the Corus Grand Slam meeting in January, he said that MTel would take place 25May - 5June. I for once trusted him, I was wrong ... . What is known now that wasn't known roughly two months ago?

If "Gens una sumus" means "swallow your opinion, don't criticize Danailov", indeed I rather would do without the motto. Another reason why Danailov shouldn't become ECU president.
And your clock seems to be stopped in 1945 (even digital clocks can be reprogrammed accordingly), so it's wrong all the time ... .

How can you call the thread depressing when it at the very least has the amusement value of Manu posting this 3 or 4 times :)

"" Topalov (and Manu) denied that there is government money involved."
Please quote Veselin or me saying that , if you can't you should stop posting here for at least a month for being such a disgusting liar.
This post will hunt you until you admit you were wrong or apologize in some way for lying."

And Thomas being able to respond:

"Manu | March 31, 2010 7:56 PM | Reply
Everybody asked about where the money for a WCH match in Bulgaria would came from , some even stated that the money would came from the taxpayers.
Well , this is the answer , from legal sponsorship , like it should be.
[maybe should write again in Spanish if you have problems expressing yourself in English, and actually didn't mean what you wrote?]
Topalov in an interview posted on the match homepage:
Q Does the prize fund consists of government money?
Topalov: No, those those money are from private sponsors, but the guarantee from the Prime Minister of Bulgaria Mr. Boiko Borisov, whom I am very grateful, was very important."

And then Manu gloriously trying to carry on regardless :) Note, even if Manu can somehow invent a way of his words not being a denial of government money being involved, Topalov's statement is pretty clear. And he said, "please quote Topalov ****OR**** me". So Manu must be feeling a bit haunted by his post around now :)

As I said before, I have no problem whatsoever with government money being used. What is noteworthy is Topalov and others denying that and using it as a stick to beat Anand with.

After claiming all the money would be from commercial sponsors Topalov went on to say: "The prize fund in [the] match is 2 million Euro – about 3 million US$ - but if Anand would have made even a minor attempt, it could easily go over 5 million". The implication being that it's straightforward to find sponsors, though if even Danailov couldn't find all the money they pledged in a country where Topalov's almost the number one sports star then that puts a different complexion on the matter.

Again, the Topalov camp are the ones who've consistently drawn attention to the finances - I think it's reasonable to try and ascertain if what they say is true.

There are certain differences between Anand-Kramnik and Topalov-Anand, I will list them stating the obvious:
- Anand-Kramnik was played on neutral, or maybe common ground: both players have German connections, Bonn is about halfway between Dortmund (Kramnik) and Mainz (Anand) ... .
- Topalov-Anand will be in the home country of one player [at the very least you have to acknowledge that this was a controversial decision - particularly because Danailov is directly involved in the match organisation]. They made every effort to outcompete other bidders, now they keep insulting Anand already before the match.

As the unprecedented prize fund played a key role in having the match in Sofia (rather than Turkey or Singapore - maybe other bidders were discouraged at an earlier stage by "Bulgarian noise"?), it is legitimate to ask where the money is coming from.

"Where the money come from Danailov and Topalov both said already."
When and where (links)? The role of government support is still unclear ... .

I mentioned Mafia and Al Qaida only to (IMO) refute statements such as "Danailov provides the money, we should simply be happy and not ask any questions". I didn't make ANY claims that dirty money is involved - this was already in my previous post, please read it again.

"Maybe things aren't settled yet. That would be an interesting discussion."
Indeed this seems to be the case, if the minister of sports said "we will contribute [with the difference between the - unknown? - amount of private sponsoring and 2 million Euros]".
I already gave my view on "national deficiencies" and explained why I mentioned hypothetical(!!) Mafia connections.

As Sherman brought up the Anand-Kramnik match, I had another look at the match homepage:
http://www.uep-chess.com/cms_english/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=5&Itemid=15
It mentions Evonik and Gazprom as main sponsors, and City of Bonn, Art and Exhibition Hall (the match venue) and German Chess Federation as partners. That's how it should be if the latter only contribute to organization and logistics!?

Okay let's ignore the noise and explore the first possiblity: Topalov just said something silly.

The only source that claims the money comes from private sponsors seems to be the Topalov interview, or did I miss something? In the interview, Topalov first tries to evade the question with the strange "from legal sponsorship", and only when pressed, commits himself to "from private sponsors".

I can easily assume Topalov has his head full with chess right now, and just blundered while trying to stay on message without actually lying. Do you know any sources where Danailov himself claims there is no government money involved?

"Legal sponsorship" was Manu's phrase from the comments above. In his interview after Linares Topalov said quite plainly that it was private sponsorship money that was only guaranteed by the government. Sure, it might just be him saying something silly.

I can't remember off-hand about Danailov. Aleko on this thread said he had Bulgarian sources indicating that the Ministry was only helping out with organisation, but he hasn't come back to the post links to them.

Hmmm,lots of questions:
How do you find such information?
Why does Chessdom only translate those Bulgarian pieces which shed a favorable light on Topailov, or match their propaganda - but not the really interesting and relevant ones?
Why is Danailov grateful to MTel?
- because their sponsoring promise helped to get the match to Bulgaria, never mind that they don't honor it (change of management is no excuse, there should have been a binding written contract).
- because they focus their sponsoring activities from six players (MTel Masters) to two players (Anand-Topalov match) to one player (Topalov, the only one he really cares about).

BTW, a certain Dutch tournament exists since 1938, despite changing its name twice - from Hoogovens to Corus, next year to Tata (an Indian company ...). It was cancelled only once in January 1945, for once the Germans can be blamed.

"How do you find such information?"

In this case I just did a Google news search for Danailov (in Cyrillic letters). I'm surprised I didn't spot it sooner - maybe I'd just searched for Topalov or Anand and it hadn't come up.

"Why does Chessdom only translate those Bulgarian pieces which shed a favorable light on Topailov, or match their propaganda - but not the really interesting and relevant ones?"

You've got to admit it was a brilliant PR coup to trick almost everyone (Mig, Chessvibes, TWIC, me, you, Manu...) into thinking that MTel was diverting their sponsorship from the tournament to the match. Although maybe it's a bit of a Pyrrhic victory when the actual state of affairs inevitably comes to light.

"Why is Danailov grateful to MTel?"

I'm probably at fault for not making that clearer. He's grateful for their support over the years (and helping them in hard times in 1995), which would be fair enough. Although I can't help thinking the logo will be on the website because otherwise it looks a bit embarrassing. I don't know if there was ever an agreement from MTel that they would sponsor the match - perhaps it was just a case of the government agreeing to fund the match and then in the meantime they would look for commercial sponsors. In which case relations between Danailov and the government might be a bit strained around now. They need a Topalov victory more than ever...

Before Manu puts in another off-topic post (he must be shocked by Sherlock mishanp's discovery):

"You've got to admit it was a brilliant PR coup to trick almost everyone ..."
I don't claim at all that I had sneaking suspicions - but if anyone had and dared to share them "hell would have broken lose" and he/she would have been accused of being a liar unless or until "the actual state of affairs comes to light". In other words, Danailov had the benefit of doubt, noone would have thought of the actual reasons - outside of Bulgaria it was probably hardly known that MTel has a new management.

And yes, I know that Danailov has genuine reasons for being grateful to MTel, I just couldn't hesitate being a bit sarcastic.

"I don't know if there was ever an agreement from MTel that they would sponsor the match"
The emerging picture seems: When the Bulgarians submitted their bid they didn't think "how much (confirmed) money do we have" but "how much money do we need to promise to get the match (even if we don't have it yet)"!? Once they got the match, it's a matter of national pride to raise the money which has been promised ... either private or government money. This gives them an unfair advantage to bids from neutral countries, IMO this is the depressing part of the story - as a match on neutral ground would have been preferable, certainly if everything else (prize fund) is equal.

Theorist,
I am loathe to defend one as vociferous as Manu but did you not notice any difference between Manu's usual handle and the 'manu' in that unfortunate post. I think that was a case of identity theft/misrepresentation and someone's poor idea of a prank. It's a shame the real Manu didn't deny it was his post.

@mishanp:
Thanks for digging up the info. The dates explain the confusing statements - they were still negotiating during March, probably still are right now. Now it remains to be seen if Borisov's guarantee is worth more than Ilyumzhinov's was. Maybe the attack against Anand was a prelude to deflect the blame.

@Thomas:
The bids from neutral countries weren't on firmer ground. FIDE demanded a bank guarantee to prevent this kind of problem, but neither Sofia nor the other bids provided one, if I remember correctly.

Well , i didn't realize someone posted under my alias (although without capital letters) , but it goes to show that i must be doing something right if anyone feels the need to link my alias with such a disrespectful post.

You might well be right about the attack on Anand being an attempt to deflect blame, but I doubt there's a problem with the funding except for the Bulgarian government feeling hard done by at having to foot most of the bill. I read somewhere else that the prize fund and fees had already been transferred to FIDE, so if there's still a shortfall between public funding and expected sponsorship it shouldn't be more than a few hundred thousand euros - the sort of sum the government would surely find to avoid any bad publicity.

"Manu just posted a lyric about a penitent wife beater for the purpose of conflation with those in disagreement with him."

I believe you are confusing Lennon with Mccartney , i know the difference can be really subtle !? , but still ...
:D

Here is a rough translation. I guess you captured the main points.

=============================================

The Chess Tournament MTel Masters will not be organized in 2010. This became official after the refusal of the general sponsor MTel to invest in the tournament for the 6-th time.

The company management decided that the interest towards the Tournament will be less than compared to previous years, because it will be organized only 3 weeks after the end of the World Cup Match.

"My opinion is different. Such wave of interest towards Chess in Bulgaria will not be seen again in the near future. It is unpleasant for the prestige of the tournament and the reputation of Bulgaria. Still, the tournament is part of the Grand Slam, which we created together. But the company has new management, which has different views", said Topalov's manager and main organizer of MTel Masters for dnevnik.bg.

MTel claims that their withdrawal is "temporary". Despite the split Danailov kept his good relationship with the mobile operator. "Vesko and I are thankful for to "MTel" for all they did for us. They supported us in difficult moments back since 2005". He said that he invited the company to sponsor the Anand-Topalov match, but received a rejection. "Despite that we put their logo on the official side as a sign of gratitude".

Danailov explained that immediately after the determination of the new champion he will start the negotiations for the next MTel Masters". "First, we'll offer to MTel. If they reject us then we will look for other sponsors", added he(Danailov).

In that way the company remains in Chess only as a sponsor of Topalov.

Yearly, the mobile operator used to give 400K Euro to "MTel Masters", while the marketing effect was calculated around 2.5-3M Euro. The Tournament was run every May since 2005 and gathered the best GMs on the World stage. The tournament is part of the Grand Slam together with Linares (Spain), Waik an Zee (Holland), Nanching (China) and Bilbao (Spain).

Heads already did roll, the company has a new management which seems to be cause rather than consequence of the new situation. I checked and Google-translated other Bulgarian sources, apparently the MTel business isn't running that well at the moment. I cannot find back that one but I found an early report (11 Jan 2010) saying that the prize fund would be reduced ("The crisis will overtake prize of MTel Masters" is the Google-translated title):
http://www.dnevnik.bg/sport/2010/01/11/840468_krizata_shte_zastigne_nagradniia_fond_na_mtel_masturs/
For what it's worth now, the report mentioned that Carlsen, (2009 winner) Shirov, Bu Xiangzhi ("to retain the interest of the Chinese market") and Nakamura were on the invitation list.

BTW, the IBM logo is new on the match homepage, the list of "partners" has also grown. Remaining evidence is the report on Chessvibes ( http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/mtel-masters-cancelled/ ) that mentioned Bulgarian government, MTel and Spectrum as main sponsors. I asked Peter Doggers about his source of information, the answer was "have a look at the match homepage".

On one hand, it is an achievement to find new sponsors and partners less than a month before the match [for once, I am not even ironic]. On the other hand, it is a clear sign - now also to the world outside of Bulgaria - that they have to improvise long after the bidding procedure was closed. Nothing illegal, of course, but "funny" or (mishanp's word) "intriguing".

"Manu's concept of truth must differ slightly from that of the rest of us"
Maybe because he's posting from the Southern hemisphere?

If you are right (of course it's speculation) that Spectrum Net and IBM just cover computing costs, and MTel is only mentioned for things they did in the past, we are left with 100% government money?
By analogy with Amber, does Borisov have a daughter, and what's her name? Maybe future supertournaments in Bulgaria will be named after her ... .

"I think we also have the righ to know why is that India wasn´t interested on hosting this event for a superstar like Vishy."

Well, this has been addressed directly by Topalov:
http://www.chessninja.com/dailydirt/2010/03/world-championship-runup-begins.htm

"we are left with 100% government money?"

Computing and internet costs would be part of the 600,000 euros left for organisation (after the prize fund and FIDE fees), so it wouldn't quite be 100%, but certainly the lion's share of the funding. I'm a bit surprised - I think everyone assumed MTel or someone else would make a fairly significant contribution - but I don't see a problem (except perhaps inside Bulgaria for Danailov and the government).

It's just that Topalov and Manu ("from legal sponsorship, like it should be") made it a point of honour that tax payers wouldn't bear the burden. And Danailov & Topalov chose to attack Anand for not finding commercial funding when, as it happens, they couldn't find any themselves.

"Above track record can be attested to Silvio Danailov, doing an outstanding job as an agent and organizer. (Keeping Elista out of the picture)".

Well yes, and Nick Leeson was a fine trader if you ignore the moment when everything went wrong... But even setting Elista aside (which I think is impossible) it's not the only blot on Silvio's record. He was the manager of Ponomariov when the Ukrainian should have played a lucrative and potentially career-transforming match against Kasparov. Recently the Grand Slam is hanging by a thread. He took the decision to deal it a body blow by not allowing Topalov, the reigning champion, to play in Bilbao, while Danailov's whole record as a fund raiser is essentially based on MTel's 400,000 euros a year, which they've now decided to withhold.

If Danailov was simply a normal manager who'd helped arrange an annual tournament in Sofia then, of course, I'd be grateful to him. As it is he's an unscrupulous and power-hungry manipulator who wants to control chess. We have enough of those already :)

I agree, by the way, it certainly is a do or die match for Topalov.

You are a bit wrong on your point 4), though it was a while (too long?) ago:
- candidates matches 1994 in Sanghi Nagar
- KO world championship 2000 in Delhi, only the final in Tehran - BTW won by a certain Vishy Anand.

All your other points make complete sense to me, maybe 2) is the most important one. At an early stage in the bidding process, Chessdom boasted that "our friends from FIDE said they rely on us, because India wouldn't be up to the task of organizing the match".

BTW, it seems that India tried at some stage to put a bid together - maybe only to avoid a match in Bulgaria. So the "Anand [or other Indians] didn't lift a finger" accusations are pointless. Well, the Topailov camp might argue that the Indians only pretended to make an effort and never meant it seriously - but here your first point (financial crisis) comes in.

I agree , the hammer is your only option at this point.

1) Of course , as a film editor i work millions hours when in season , and i have many other activities that keeps me awake , i also run and do yoga and play instruments, family , etc
2)I was exited that the event had legal sponsorship , it doesnt make any difference to me if the companies are Mtel or IBM or the chinese supermarket across the street.
Nothing illegal has been proved yet , despite the many insinuations , in fact it might turn out that everybody will be making lots of money if the match goes ok.
3)You are getting redundant with your descriptions of myself , change the channel please , you scored 1/2 point like in ten threads....
4) Keep up the good work , i love your translations.

1)"i work millions hours"
I am impressed, please give us a course in time management: a year has a bit less than 10,000 hours, so an average life would be less than ONE million hours ,:)

2)"legal sponsorship". You are soooo proud of this term, please explain to us what "illegal sponsorship" would be! A plausible answer might be "anything by Ilyumzhinov", but his Excellency and his Silvio are close buddies (and BTW Borisov is also a colorful politician).

"everybody will be making lots of money if the match goes ok"
Who is everybody? I count two persons, Topalov and Anand - OK, both will have to share the money with their teams.
And they should make the money even if the match is not going OK, read if there will be a scandal or two. There is only one worst-case scenario for Anand AND for chess in general - Vishy getting so fed up with Bulgarian provocations that he quits the match, abandoning title and prize money ... .

mishamp , please reread the thread and count the number of times you attacked me with that interesting project of irony that you have ,also count the number of times that you mentioned my name or spoke about me...
Why is that i don't do the same thing?
Well , i just don't find you interesting enough , and more importantly i don't feel threatened by your biased assertions of the chess world , i consider you quite harmless in that respect.
What was that you were ranting about? I'm sorry that you spent so much energy pushing that dead donkey but you need to let it go , it is starting to smell.
BTW you broke your promise many times in this thread , which makes me wonder about the purpose of making those promises in the first place.

"mishamp , please reread the thread and count the number of times you attacked me with that interesting project of irony that you have"

Always your servant. I attacked you with irony zero (0) times - I'm even disappointed with myself. Any comments were to be taken literally
(except maybe about revealing my Chessninja alias to get match tickets, or merging the MTel Masters with the MTel Female Beach Volleyball event...).

"count the number of times that you mentioned my name or spoke about me...
Why is that i don't do the same thing?
Well , i just don't find you interesting enough , and more importantly i don't feel threatened by your biased assertions of the chess world"

And yet the moment I found out that the interview Mig posted mislead all of us (and most spectacularly you) & that MTel aren't sponsoring the match you went to the extraordinary length of composing a 15-point AA (KA?) plan & quoting Lennon lyrics and other nonsense to bury the relevant details.

"I'm sorry that you spent so much energy pushing that dead donkey"

You provided the energy - I just provided a few cold facts proving you totally and utterly wrong. Apologies.

"BTW you broke your promise many times in this thread"

But you've got to admit I was going well with my plan of ignoring you before that. Don't worry, I'll be back on the bandwagon soon - and heartily recommend it to all.

@ Dimi

Not exactly worth responding to "you're a dork", is it? For the final time - Topalov, Danailov, Manu & co. made an issue of having commercial funding. I just checked the facts - which you apparently perceive as a grievous insult.

Sorry , it is hard to follow your ideas of right or wrong funding for a WCH match.
What was that you were ranting about?
Did you find something spectacular or worth mentioning?
Was there something illegal going on?
Do yOu Root 4 Kramnik?

:D :-

Agreed - it's exactly the reason I completely stopped responding to Manu about a month ago. I'll get back to that.

All that's worth rescuing from this topic is this article: http://www.dnevnik.bg/sport/2010/03/24/878394_mtel_masturs_2010_niama_da_ima_zaradi_ottegliane_na/

And Dimi's translation: http://www.chessninja.com/dailydirt/2010/03/mtel-2010-canceled.htm#comment-216114

The fact that MTel decided not to sponsor the match, despite the opposite impression being given by the Chessdom article that spread around the web (quoted by Mig above), is newsworthy.

What a strange way to " ignore" someone , stopping once in a while to call him names or attack him ,while questioning his level of debate with the other hand , maybe i should start to " ignore" you in the same way...
But i beg to differ , i believe the recent discovery of the etymology of the word " dork" is just as important as the 15 steps for recovery or any other contribution to this thread.

Do yOu Root 4 Kramnik?

The reason why Indian corporations don't sponsor a World Championship Match is that even with Anand playing, the event will not garner sufficient publicity to justify a 2 Million Euro investment.Anand would probably have potential Chess sponsorship $$ go directly to him, rather than to a match where the Prize Fund is divided between him and Topalov, less FIDE's 20% cut off the Top. He probably figures that he can beat Topalov in Sofia, and if not, the Loser's share is still a big payday.

In any case, Topalov, Anand, and Kramnik are going to have big trouble vying for the Title, the next time Carlsen goes through the Candidate's cycle...

India's chess federation is in disarray--there are rival factions claiming to be the legitiamte representatives of the national federation; a Civil War of sorts.

Sure, Tata gives money to Chess, but in Europe, where the publicity and goodwill are more valuable, perhaps.

It's obvious that not many Olympic sports are getting government or corporate largesse in India. Why would Chess be an exception? Maybe only Cricket creates real enthusiasm?

It is striking that India does not host a high Category Round Robin Chess event. Also, Anand rarely has played on India's team in the Chess Olympiads--not enough $$ to entice him to appear.

Money can be "Legal", but not Legitimate. Clean money is difficult to find in the Chess World. Remember BrainGames? Folks who invested in that weren't too happy with Ray Keene. Or the Ponzi schemer who funded Fischer's 1992 match?

In the West, you can get corporate $$ to fund tournaments or matches, but it is usually a one off.

I had always assumed that the Bulgarian gov't had strongly encouraged M-Tel to sponsor Topalov. Maybe in Topalov loses, they'll take his share of the purse.

As for predictions:
Let's see: Kramnik beat Topalov. Anand beat Kramnik. Therefore, Anand should be Topalov.

Despite "Sofia Rules", most of the games will end in Draws. The match is too short for Anand to get tired out from long games. Topalov and Anand will contrive to draw by repetitions, or by exchanging down to bare Kings.

Anand will win: +3 =7 -1 (12th gmae won't be played).

I hope that a position arises where Anand has (say) a symbolic extra pawn, where only he has the winning chances (albeit very slight). He could play on, and "punish" Topalov, or he could offer a Draw from a position of strength, and punish him some More!

Chess is not an Olimpic sport , didnt have the heart to read the rest.

There is a (separate) Chess Olympiad ,:) maybe this mislead Doug. But as chess isn't part of the big Olympics it may be even less attractive for sponsors.
Well, cricket isn't Olympic either, personally I don't understand why it's immensely popular in some (Commonwealth) countries - but given that it is, sponsors recognize its market value.
Maybe hockey gets some government or corporate support in India? To my knowledge (but I don't follow all Olympic sports), it's the only Olympic discipline where India has medal chances.

@Doug: As you seem to have inside information, and since I referred to major chess events in India in 1994 and 2000: Do you know what changed in the last 10 years?

I'd definitely be interested in that - I'll send an e-mail sometime soon. By the way, I'm not sure if it was supposed to but the link to "Dnevnik" on Chessvibes at the moment doesn't go to the right page.

In the meantime feel free to quote the news on Topalov's seconds here :)
http://www.chessninja.com/dailydirt/2010/03/world-championship-runup-begins.htm#comment-216424

So your investigation on WCH founding ended up with Vesko and me being absolutely right , what a shock.
Next time you should join forces with chessvibes , Watson.

The horror.
But when you mention crisis , Are you referring to the global crisis ? Or the one that the dorks(™) are experiencing because of this match?