On May 14, the Supervisory Council of the Russian Chess Federation attempted to hold a meeting in Moscow. Things had already gotten weird, with Council president Arkady Dvorkovich, also an aide to Russian president Medvedev, coming out in advance for Ilyumzhinov. So far in advance, in fact, that he announced on his own three weeks earlier that the RCF was nominating Ilyumzhinov. He did this after "talking to several Council members on the phone" and writing a letter of nomination that didn't have the signature of Alexander Bakh, the only person in the RCF empowered to sign things.
Karpov protested and Dvorkovich backed down somewhat and both sides girded for the May 14 meeting in Moscow. Things got a little wild even before the meeting. Dvorkovich caught wind that Karpov may have lined up a vote and enough votes to gain the nomination. So he announced a postponement of the meeting, which was ignored by Karpov supporters since they knew the only reason for a postponement was to avoid a vote. Dvorkovich then tried to move the meeting to a new location, one under his control, suggesting his own office or the offices at a bank owned by one of Ilyumzhinov's supporters. When all that failed, Dvorkovich and other Ilyumzhinov supporters on the Council boycotted the meeting, where the now-famous vote took place with 17 of the 32 Council members staying and voting for Karpov. (Council members are elected from all over Russia.)
Dvorkovich and Ilyumzhinov immediately attacked from just about every angle. The vote was invalid because A) Dvorkovich already nominated Ilyumzhinov himself or B) Dvorkovich didn't attend the meeting so the meeting didn't count or C) the meeting was supposed to take place at Dvorkovich's offices (Ilyumzhinov actually wrote this in his letter of protest but it was pointed out that the original announcement -- with the location as the Chess Club -- was still up on the RCF website. Oops. Though my favorite part of the letter is when he made fun of the delegates for voting with a show of hands. Yes, Kirsan, that is what democracy looks like. Scary, isn't it!) or D) the recent (February) reformulation of the RCF's structure and statutes had not been registered with the government agency that manages federations and other NGOs, so the RCF didn't really exist and the entire vote was a dream sequence.
Remarkably, it's D they seem to have settled on now, which makes you wonder what exactly Dvorkovich was planning to do at the meeting before he tried to cancel it. If none of the decisions the organization takes are binding, what were they doing there? And the NGO registry is about tax and banking status, not about internal affairs of the federation, so who cares? In an impressive attempt to thread this needle, Dvorkovich is now saying that since he (along with Council Chairman Alexander Bakh) was appointed to his position by the Congress, his position and authority are real despite the lack of registration with the feds. Unfortunately, Dvorkovich's post was not given the authority to sign papers for the RCF, Bakh's was, and Bakh supports Karpov. (Though, and this is important, Bakh didn't try to nominate Karpov unilaterally, instead holding an open vote.)
When Karpov won the May 14 vote I wasn't surprised. What surprised me is that it happened at all. Most readers know my day job with Kasparov is largely dedicated to The Other Russia and related pro-democracy initiatives in Russia, so I'm intimately familiar with the way state power is flexed there, although I am safe in Brooklyn instead of marching in the streets or having my offices raided on a monthly basis, for which I am very grateful. And with Dvorkovich being a presidential aide, and not a disposable one -- he is in charge of the Skolkovo "innovation center," the Kremlin's comically doomed attempt to create an artificial Silicon Valley near Moscow -- I figured that if Dvorkovich were worried the building would be locked down and the delegates dispersed, or threatened and then dispersed.
When that didn't happen, I took it as another sign that Ilyumzhinov's shield of political protection in Russia wasn't what it used to be. The other signs were how Ilyumzhinov's tales of an alien encounter hit the Russian press and then were even brought up in the Russian Duma. The rumblings in the Russian chess countryside were also getting some traction and there were actually more than 17 Karpov supporters on the Council, though a few decided it was too risky to show up. (Note that some of the most politically vulnerable Council members, from Moscow and St. Petersburg, bailed. Many of the votes came from areas most distant from the center, where there is typically less fear of Moscow.)
But it turns out Dvorkovich hadn't really left old methods behind, he was just slow to put them into action. As detailed in Gazeta.ru, with excerpts and more up in English on Chessbase here, Dvorkovich sent in a private security team to secure the Chess Club, kick Bakh out, and also shut everyone else out of the RCF website and bank accounts. This, we recall, by someone who doesn't have the authority to sign papers on behalf of the RCF and whose chosen candidate just lost a vote. This lack of signing authority is mostly because he is a government official. After several scandals and, later, poor performance by Russia at the Winter Games in Vancouver, Medvedev called for officials to stop meddling in sports federations. Dvorkovich was appointed RCF president because his father was a famous Soviet/Russian chess figure, but old hand Bakh was put on watch with signing powers so they weren't giving authority to a Medvedev aide.
Dvorkovich's brute force tactics are tragic on several levels. The story has hit the news and the blogs in Russia, disappointing many who are still holding out a tiny bit of optimism for liberalization from Medvedev -- and especially a young minister like Dvorkovich who is supposed to be beyond the Putin/siloviki mentality. On a more immediate level for us here in chessland, it indicates how deeply Ilyumzhinov must have dug himself and many others into things they can't afford to let go. Otherwise it's very hard to imagine someone of Dvorkovich's position allowing himself to get dragged into this with a fringe figure like Ilyumzhinov. That is, things with nothing to do with chess. But we have enough scary stuff going on without getting into their motivations.
Now we have Dvorkovich sending out letters to federations saying Karpov wasn't nominated by Russia (see reasons A-D above, plus a few more tossed in, including actually accusing Karpov of corrupt motivations). Karpov won the vote, Dvorkovich has the force of arms, and both have mailing lists and plenty of time. Dvorkovich surely has the levers to manufacture just about any result he wants now that he has cracked down hard. He could have a friendly judge declare the vote for Karpov invalid or probably create an entirely new RCF council and appoint his horse and dog to it, or simply declare that his original nomination of Karpov Ilyuzmhinov [typo] is the law of the land. Dvorkovich is basically saying he is the RCF. Ilyumzhinov will obviously support him. Will FIDE's member federations believe them? Or believe the video of the May 14 vote? It seems like an ideal opportunity to remind federations that this sort of thuggery is exactly the sort of behavior we would like to see cleaned up, and that they have a chance to strike a blow for this in September. And while I'm not nominating Karpov for sainthood, he did get the 17 votes and he's not going to send the MiB to roust you.
It's all quite depressing. Ilyumzhinov will try to keep Karpov off the ballot or try to force him to run from France or Germany. Ilyumzhinov will claim forever that he has the Russian nomination. What is the procedure to deal with a rogue FIDE president, by the way?
Sickening developments that make chess as a sport look like a joke. (Good job, Kirsan.) Well, even if these abhorrent tactics land Ilyumzhinov the Russian nomination, hopefully enough federations will take note of these events and support Karpov.
Also, I think more top players need to start weighing in on this situation, although not like FIDE listens to their opinion anyways.
its time for the European, North American and some Asian federations to breakaway. Th whole thing is becoming a farce
The problem is that chess does not generate enough money by itself to allow the organization of truly professional activities.
Let's be honest here: no matter what side of the argument you're on (Karpov vs. Kirsan), chess has always dpended on the money of personal donors, not corporate sponsorship. Begore Kirsan, there was the equally corrupt and despised Campomanes. Before that, professional chess players were playing for very little money. In fact, the biggest prize fund before the K-K matches was the Fischer-Spassky match, at $125.000, made twice as fat as originally planned ($250.000) by a last-minute donation.
Today's players won't play for little money. There is no real sponsorship money in chess. There is not enough public interest in chess that meaningful money can be made from it. So, what are the choices for professional player who need to bring the bacon home? To mingle with wealthy individuals that will provide the money (Kirsan, Renteros). Or mingle with guys who have "connections" (Danailov, Kok). That was the case with Capablanca and will be the case with the next world champion.
Pick your poison...little to no money or putting up with your sugar daddy's demands...
BTW, I'm NOT defending Kirsan in any way, shape or form. He is a weird, corrupt little third-world tyrant. He is guilty of all sins attributed to him. No question about it.
My point is: are professional chessplayers ready to let go of him and his money in exchange for a clean, honest but money-less FIDE?
I don't think so...
Finally, what does Karpov really bring to the table, except that he is not Kirsan?
It's dirty, petty politics in Russia, as always, for both sides...
Well, with names comes money I guess. Karpov is a name, even more when connected with Kasparov who is supporting him. Kirsan is not.
I also believe Kasparovs got a point stating that a Western World-Champion or even a WC-challanger, i.e. Carlsen, will serve chess.
I respect the citizens of Kalmykia and the Caukasian area, but all the FIDE- Grand Prix are played down there. Though Karpov is brought up in the USSR system, I'm quite convinced he's a better choise than Kirsan. If FIDE is getting clean(er) the money may enter.
I don't believe Iliumjinov can get as much money as some people think. That might be the opposite, actually. Money is in Europa and the USA. FIDE has become like a mob organization, thanks to its international recognized statut. Pay or else...
Iliumjinov's policy last achievment ? Can't think of one ? Ow yes, lied and behaved so improperly it has driven Carlsen to retire from the GP.
B. Kok has failed recently. Sincerely hope Karpov can make it next time.
Even Topalov, who I felt a little sorry about lately, has stated that you cannot change the rules within a cycle. Carlsen entered the Grand Prix believing that the winner would be the WC-challanger. After a while FIDE/Kirsan changed the rules, causing Carlsen quite. What happened next, the Czech city who were supposed to arrange one of the Grand Prix', withdrew, partly because of the absense of Carlsen who were by far the most attractive particepant. End of process, chess (Grand Prix) leaving (traditional) Europe and moving back to Kirsans backyard.
The initial part, a corrupt "not obeying their own rules" FIDE/Kirsan.
Excellent piece!
In a campaign between two "politically reliable" candidates, former WCC Karpov and alien abuctee Kirsan, Russian government higher-ups could have remained uninterested or neutral.
But the possibility of government higher-ups' disinterest or neutrality was annihilated once anti-government activist Kasparov took a prominent role in Karpov's campaign. We're viewing the unfortnate consequences in this blog and in Chessbase.
Kasparov's forays into chess politics have always been amateurish and ham-handed, and his desire to "help" Karpov by prominently supporting his campaign is unsurprising. And one could see how Kasparov might be attracted to an enterprise which could enhance perceptions of him as a shining light of democracy in a thugocratic Russia.
But you'd have hoped that Karpov would have had more sense than to give Kasparov a prominent role in his campaign.
This week:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/05/18/chesspotism?page=0,1
I don't believe that even Karpov WITH Kasparov helping him will be able to get the funding that everyone wants. Simply put, chess is not "cool", and until it's viewed as a "socially acceptable" game the way poker is, chess will continue to be underfunded.
It's HIGH TIME for the U.S.C.F. and all other member nations of F.I.D.E. to to break away. Kirsan has proven that he'll use murder, violence and corruption to hold his post as President. F.I.D.E. is no longer a legitimate organization.
Sadly, this also proves Kasparov's point about Putin and Russia; it's just the same old dirty Soviet strong-arm politics in place.
It's become time for REVOLUTION!
Greg - Why do you have it in for Garry?
Heads up, folks. Mig seems to be trying to lead the proverbial horse to water....
The overwhelming question is WHY. Why is the authoritarian police apparatus of the Russian government taking such an interest? Why does it care? What is so bad about having Karpov, the reliable former face of Soviet chess and former champion, as the Russian nominee or, if he is ultimately successful, as FIDE president? Why go to extreme lengths to prevent this? What is worth trying by force to impose on the entire chess world the absurd "black is white" argument that the recorded nomination vote never happened? And why, in a few quarters outside Russia, have we witnessed nearly hysterical nonsensical support for the Abducted One, notwithstanding the fact that leadership by a notorious nutjob plainly precludes FIDE from being viewed as a legitimate sporting body that can garner commercial sponsorship?
In short, what the hell is really going on at FIDE? What is FIDE being used for that requires such extreme measures to protect the status quo? That is the question. In the absense of a leadership change and housecleaning, we may never know (and even after a change we might not want to know), but anyone who thinks that these latest developments are about competing views of the candidate cycle for the next chess world championship or even merely about routine cronyism needs to start thinking a little harder about this.
Disgusting. Simply disgusting.
noyb wrote:
"It's HIGH TIME for the U.S.C.F. and all other member nations of F.I.D.E. to to break away"
The USCF is ten times more corrupt than FIDE :-)
The real problem is that whoever gets elected as FIDE President is expected to generate lots of money from a game that does not attract meaningful corporate sponsorship or public interest. That's an impossible task for anyone...and the reason FIDE has Kirsan (but it comes with a heavy price, as we all know by now).
Question: has Karpov ever elaborated on how how he would bring money to chess (other than listing all the terrible things Kirsan has done)?
Karpov is filthy rich himself. If nothing else he could bring money to chess himself.
He-he-he. It was rather obvious Putin would step in for his man (that Kasparov-Karpov photo-op was a bit too obvious)... good parry by Putin's forces. Show's they're awake.
And good countermove in media by Mig's team to paint the Illum side as "dirty".
We have a real contest on.
"The USCF is ten times more corrupt than FIDE"
Are you Susan Polgar? ;)
@The overwhelming question is WHY. Why is the authoritarian police apparatus of the Russian government taking such an interest? Why does it care?..
If you are naive enough to ask such a question I am tempted to assume that you have been born, and lived all your life, in a Western "free country".
In such countries policy is based on consent and perceived legitimacy by the majority not on superior "muscle" and the raw threat to physical aggression. In such a "free country" nobody gives a dam if go on street and scream against some mainstream policy because it is understood that the policy is truly supported by the most people and enforced with their consent.
The situation is quite different in the other, the shity, parts of the world (to which the present Russia belongs) where those in power know that they are there simply because they are more powerful and that it is only fear, not moral agreement, that which keeps them there.
Consequently the feel obliged to react at the slightest challange to their (imoral) authority or their lack of reaction will be perceived as weakness and their in turn will be attacked and removed from power. In such countries the "ruled" and the "rulers" are mortal enemies who don't battle eachother only when the rulers are perceived to be so strong that a rebellion is regarded as pointless, as with no chances.
After communism fell in 1990s Russia tried but failed to build a real democracy, a free-market and a civil society. It merely reverted to state despotism and nepotism.
I'm assuming you have the wrong name in the second to last paragraph: "or simply declare that his original nomination of Karpov is the law of the land." Don't you mean Illyumzhinov
"The overwhelming question is WHY. Why is the authoritarian police apparatus of the Russian government taking such an interest? Why does it care? What is so bad about having Karpov, the reliable former face of Soviet chess and former champion, as the Russian nominee or, if he is ultimately successful, as FIDE president? Why go to extreme lengths to prevent this? What is worth trying by force to impose on the entire chess world the absurd "black is white" argument that the recorded nomination vote never happened?"
The answer is always about money. I don't think that the actual government cares about the RCF, but only Dvorkovich. There's certainly some kind of arrangement between Kirsan and Dvorkovich where the latter gets some kind of kickback, etc. When in doubt, follow the money. I have a hard time believing that many of the people purporting to support Ilyumzhinov are actual chess idealists...
I do not disagree with your responce, but it was a bit broader than what I was diving at. Even accepting your point of view. Why should the government take such a stand about the FIDE organaization in particular? Having Karpov, the last face of Soviet chess dominance, is hardly an embarrasment for the Russians and, given his campaign positions and real committment to Russian chess, it can hardly be viewed as anything but a "win" for Russia. Part of exercizing power, even authoritarian powere, is knowing when to use your fist, and even in today's Russia it not used for utterly trivial reasons.
There are nontrivial issues at play, and most anything merely chess related would be deemed trivial. Mig asks what to do with a rogue FIDE president. Perhaps the better question is what to do with a rogue FIDE?
Indeed, yoozum, "follow the money" is a bit closer to the mark.
"Perhaps the better question is what to do with a rogue FIDE?"
Cuts to the point!
@Karpov, the last face of Soviet chess dominance, is hardly an embarrasment for the Russians
Yes, but Karpov did not play that card (he would have increaseas his chances as you point out)
instead Karpov associated himself with the "regime critique" Kasparov.
I wrote here few days ago when Mig published about the fundraising event in New York that it was a flashy, socialite, and foolish move. Karpov lives in Russia not in New York and real battle is fought at Moscow.
"real battle is fought at Moscow"
That's just one battle, and in the FIDE presidential elections the Russian federation will have only one vote.
Even if Karpov has "real commitment to Russian chess", he is also interested in the rest of the world and their votes. And he was already nominated by the German federation (possible because he is a member of a German club and thus of the federation).
Karpov wouldn't mind the Russian nomination, but if Ilyumzhinov wins that battle, how much is his victory really worth? It is already clear that the Russian federation is deeply divided, so Kirsan's victory would be by a narrow (and "artifical") margin, not a convincing one.
@but if Ilyumzhinov wins that battle, how much is his victory really worth?
Karpov will be "kindly" suggested by few guys in black to withdraw his candidacy for good, and for ever, or move to New York and live there in Mig's apartment.
Careful, Mig. Their reach may be long and does not necessarily stop at the Russian border.
There is nothing to fear , this charade will end with Russia having the 2 candidates for presidency , like planned.
I reckon that you are correct. All this is disappointing but not suprising or unplanned for. So long as Karpov's opening play gets him safely into the middlegame and his candidacy remains alive for the broader vote, the head-to-head battle with Ilyumzhinov should not be bad thing. I would hope that a majority of federations will be all the more likely to recoil away from the Abducted One after the latest series authoritarian shenanigans and thuggery.
Getting easier to connect the dots... this from Anatoly today: "It is ironic that Mr. Dvorkovich libels me as pursuing the presidency of FIDE for improper purposes. I was not aware that there is significant money involved in chess at the moment. Perhaps Mr. Dvorkovich can enlighten us all about the financial dealings of FIDE and his involvement."
'the possibility of government higher-ups' disinterest or neutrality was annihilated once anti-government activist Kasparov took a prominent role in Karpov's campaign.'
Karpov knew excactliy what he was doing.
Great help from Dvorkovich for his campain.
His chances to get the majority of the federations are better now.
Where were Kasparov and Karpov 4 years ago when Bessel Kok battled Ilyumzhinov?
If Karpov becomes Pres, will Kasparov become Vice-President?
It's amazing how chess politics works with former enemies becoming best friends. What's next...Korchnoi announcing his total backing to Karpov's bid??!!!!
Duncan
"His chances to get the majority of the federations are better now."
I think I see your point. The majority of the federations will now know that Kirsan is supported by a problematic bunch of Russian higher-ups. They didn't know that before.
Kaspy used to hate Kirsan, then he loved Kirsan and now he hates Kirsan. Polititical opportunism at it's best. Bad execution for Kaspy who once again shows his complete lack of political understanding by associating with the wrong powers at the wrong moment. Kaspy's political Elo must be in the low 1400's.
"His chances to get the majority of the federations are better now."
I think I see your point. The majority of the federations will now know that Kirsan is supported by a problematic bunch of Russian higher-ups. They didn't know that before.
***
???
Each federation will have 1 vote. If Ilyumzhinov gets the Russian vote, that is 1 vote.
He would still be the favorite to win the election with dozens of third world federations.
Karpov may have 20 or 30 western federation votes -- and they may be high profile ones -- but they all count the same ie 1 vote apiece.
The bigger fight for Ilyumzhinov is to get on the ballot. He needs the RCF vote more than Karpov does...if Ilyumzhinov can be nominated, he still is the favorite to win.
And rightly so -- he has spent millions on title cycle chess over 10 yrs, he has saved FIDE from the PCA breakaway.
USCF is doing its usual loopy thing where it gives lip service to supporting the opposition, then finds it has no money to support any campaigns, then when the opposition loses, it cries foul when it does not receive any benefits from Ilyumzhinov's victory.
To KI's credit, he has given USCF various perks over the years despite USCF's opposition to his candidacy and its apathy to FIDE (vs PCA).
If the opposition wins this year, I don't see where the FIDE funding comes from -- does anyone?
"Each federation will have 1 vote. If Ilyumzhinov gets the Russian vote, that is 1 vote.
He would still be the favorite to win the election with dozens of third world federations.
Karpov may have 20 or 30 western federation votes -- and they may be high profile ones -- but they all count the same ie 1 vote apiece."
Yes, and that is why FIDE governance is a disaster. One Federation One Vote is idealistic, but absurd. Perhaps votes should be weighted by some formula involving the number of FIDE rated and FIDE Titled players a Federation has.
There are dozens of Federations representing nations without a chessplaying heritage, and where there is barely any chess activity.
Why should some Federation bureaucrat be allowed to serve as a pocket vote for the head man (Kirsan), just because he receives a few emollients from FIDE courtesy of Kirsan?
Let FIDE continue to run the Chess Olympiad, and a shell of the World Championship, but simply create some new Anglo-European based International Chess Federation, which will start up a rival World Championship Match, its own Zonal and Interzonal Systems, along with competitions such as Candidates' Matches/Tournaments, a World Cup, a Grand Prix, European and World Team/Club Competitions, and the World Junior and World Youth events.
Simply strip out anything of value from FIDE, and leave the rest of the carcass for the vermin to fight over.
"And rightly so -- he has spent millions on title cycle chess over 10 yrs, he has saved FIDE from the PCA breakaway"
Chesspride seems to think that saving FIDE is a worthwhile thing, however it is obvious that Chess as a game/sport would be in far better shape if Kirsan hadn't taken control. Unfortunately, for all of the (filthy) lucre that Kirsan has committed, all of his efforts have resulted in one-offs. It's like a gardener who continually plants showy flowers, while jetting the perennial plants wither and decay. It's one of the World's longest "Potemkin Fronts"
Irv wrote:
"The USCF is ten times more corrupt than FIDE."
I'm not a particular fan of the USCF, but it's not 10 times more corrupt than FIDE; that's mathematically impossible as FIDE is 100% corrupt (lol). The USCF certainly is a cesspool in my opinion. I've attended enough meetings going as far back as the mid-80's and have had enough scraps with them myself to be able to testify as to it's level of corruption.
This just makes chess look bad. And proceedings in Russia.
A shame.
"Money is in Europa and the USA"
Just note that the German Chess Federation headed by von Weizsäcker (who now wants to be installed as Karpov/Kasparov aide in the ECU, along with the strange statement that he actually hasn't time to do this job, a claim he already proved for his German position) has virtually no corporate sponsorship. Even a wealthy chess-related software company in Hamburg prefers to spend its money through other channels than a federation.
The main problem on the financial side is that way too man people think they are entitled to earn their money from their chess activities since they invested so much time in their youth. Sorry, guys, wrong decision. There is no reason why someone who isn't capable to stay within top 20-50 for a longer period of time should be a professional player. Holding the inflationary GM title, or even being above 2700 in a single list (or above 2750 in ten years, or wherever inflation goes to) doesn't mean anything. Many people hold on by doing trainer business or so, but that doesn't change the situation that the available sponsorship pool for chess is too small to ensure a living for all the people who would like to be chess professionals. Today, very few professional GMs really do something for the development of chess - the only convincing reason for me to make a donation.
That said, my sympathy for starving Kalmykian people means that it would certainly be an advantage to get rid of Illu - better let starve some arrogant chess players instead who think the public must fund their hobby.
But there is no sign that Karpov&Combo will be a good choice to change this situation for good. They claim to act in the interest of chess players but mean only a small group. No clear statement about the vain attempts to make chess olympic, the nonsense drug tests, the time controls.
"noyb | May 22, 2010 11:43 AM | Reply
It's HIGH TIME for the U.S.C.F. and all other member nations of F.I.D.E. to to break away. Kirsan has proven that he'll use murder, violence and corruption to hold his post as President. F.I.D.E. is no longer a legitimate organization.
Sadly, this also proves Kasparov's point about Putin and Russia; it's just the same old dirty Soviet strong-arm politics in place.
It's become time for REVOLUTION!"
Seems to me the same as what Goichberg did to Polgar. RCF attacks former World Champion. While USCF attacks former Women's World Champion.
Let me write the above slightly differently.
It's HIGH TIME for the U.S.C.F. members to to break away. Goichberg has proven that he'll use expensive lawyers paid by members, and corruption to hold his post as President. U.S.C.F. is no longer a legitimate organization.
Sadly, this also proves the point about Goichberg and USCF; it's just the same old dirty USCF strong-arm politics in place.
It's become time for REVOLUTION!
The game of chess seems to have a lot of parasites attached to it.
One gets the impression that the administration of chess, both nationally and internationally, is vastly out of proportion to the actual needs of the game.
I can think of no other sport which has managed to bring itself into similar disrepute through its administrations failings. Cycling is in crisis because the athletes turned into criminals, while chess is in crisis because its administrators became crooks.
There's a difference.
Get rid of the crooks, and chess may stand a chance. Doing so wouldn't affect the actual playing of the game one bit, and would probably lead to more transparent and better processes where there's now just chaos.
Don't let us look back. Admitting almost all protagonists made mistakes it's better to focus on a better future for chess.
In Turino Bessel Kok couldn't win the vote. Now Karpov can't win it. Democratic procedures are non-existent in FIDE. So what?
The West-Europeans (The Netherlands, France, Germany, UK, Belgium), North-Europeans, South-Europeans (Spain, Italy, Portugal), Australia, VS and Canada must take the initiative. Form their own association.
Dictatorship is now at the core of FIDE. Putin is worse than Breznev, and he'll stay in power for years to come. The best way to compete this is bluntly ignoring it. In the West we've to make our own -democratic- future. Also in chess.
Let FIDE continue to run the Chess Olympiad, and a shell of the World Championship, but simply create some new Anglo-European based International Chess Federation, which will start up a rival World Championship Match, its own Zonal and Interzonal Systems, along with competitions such as Candidates' Matches/Tournaments, a World Cup, a Grand Prix, European and World Team/Club Competitions, and the World Junior and World Youth events.
Simply strip out anything of value from FIDE, and leave the rest of the carcass for the vermin to fight over.
"And rightly so -- he has spent millions on title cycle chess over 10 yrs, he has saved FIDE from the PCA breakaway"
Chesspride seems to think that saving FIDE is a worthwhile thing, however it is obvious that Chess as a game/sport would be in far better shape if Kirsan hadn't taken control. Unfortunately, for all of the (filthy) lucre that Kirsan has committed, all of his efforts have resulted in one-offs. It's like a gardener who continually plants showy flowers, while jetting the perennial plants wither and decay. It's one of the World's longest "Potemkin Fronts"
****
Are you going to fund it? If not, shut up :)
Saving FIDE is rather important to people who actually do things inside FIDE, like VOTE, so I wouldn't discount it as an achievement.
Rather like asking Lincoln what else he accomplished during his administration -- apart from saving the Union.
"if Ilyumzhinov can be nominated, he still is the favorite to win. And rightly so -- he has spent millions on title cycle chess over 10 yrs"
This sounds like a repeat of the often asserterd canard that Kirsan has put personal funds into FIDE to a greater extent than he has financially benefitted. Can we hear the one about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy too?
Starnge that you see that chess would be worse off if chess became FIDE's raison d'etre rather than a chess being merely a front for an enterprise of a different sort altogether. I wonder how many share the view that letting corrution reign is a good thing so long as chess is regulalry thrown a few crumbs.
****
Are you going to fund it? If not, shut up :)
Saving FIDE is rather important to people who actually do things inside FIDE, like VOTE, so I wouldn't discount it as an achievement.
Rather like asking Lincoln what else he accomplished during his administration -- apart from saving the Union.
_________________________________________________
Not everything is about the money....
but even if it was, prostituting chess out to a series of ever increasingly sleazy "Johns" is hardly the correct strategy. In corporate jargon, it is important to enhance the brand to get it to sell for a good price. If Chess, in a debauched state, desperately careens from one Sugar Daddy to another, the price that she can command tends to go down from client to client.
FIDE seems to have more of the value system of the Confederacy (of Dunces), and so the better analogy would be asking Jefferson Davis, in May of 1865, what he accomplished.
Finally, I also think that it is perfectly fine to criticize FIDE decision, especially with regard to holding official events in places like Tehran, Libya, and Saddam's Iraq (or did crackpot Kirsan bruit the last idea around, because there is no such thing as bad publicity?) I opposed those decisions of convenience, and I would have consistantly opposed holding the Chess Competitions there, even if that mean that the World Championship waasn't held at all.
The only vote that counts in FIDE is Kirsan's; everyone else is just an occassional rubber stamp. I'll be the first to admit that there will be winners and losers if the Anglo-European Chess Federations bolt, to create theiir own new Chess Association. But the Federations themselves will probably come out ahead. It doesn't matter (to me, at least) if FIDE is devastated in the process, and all of its assortment of gangsters and flim-flam artists have nothing left to leech off of. Some professional players will be worse off, but others will be better off.
If the National Chess federations continue to abide FIDE, it is against their own self-interests as organizations. That they have done so for several decades already only indicates that a good number of the Chess bureaucrats have been completely co-opted.
mig wishes so. He prolly lives in the projects. Most chess players in NYC do so. He should be doing Illyumzhinov instead of kasparov, maybe he can get some better hand outs that way.
Even if Karpov has "real commitment to Russian chess", he is also interested in the rest of the world and their votes. And he was already nominated by the German federation (possible because he is a member of a German club and thus of the federation).
Karpov wouldn't mind the Russian nomination, but if Ilyumzhinov wins that battle, how
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And this seems very odd -- that candidates can be nominated by multiple federations.
Players cannot play for multiple federations -- they must pick one.
The German connection is very iffy -- perhaps I should ask a small federation to nominate ME just for fun -- if all it takes is some $$ to pay dues.
Sam Sloan -- this is your chance to make a really big splash
Karpov doesn't even appear in the German national rating list (retrieve top lists at http://schachbund.de/dwz/db/verband.html), though Carlsen, Anand etc. do. It appears that no membership fees were paid in his name up to his surprising nomination (though it is claimed that he belongs to Hockenheim for many years). When tracking down the membership records, it may well be that his nomination could be checked in front of a German court (not too suspicious to be under direct influence of Putin).
Old American saying - "You can't fight City Hall".
It was tried in 1986 and failed.
It was tried in 2006 and failed.
Ilyumzhinov will win.
Quite funny, especially in the light of Karpov's court move:
Very recently (according to the file, June 23rd 2010), the German Chess Federation has faked a Karpov membership record in its rating database:
http://schachbund.de/dwz/db/spieler.html?zps=10117-942
(definitely, there was no such entry in May). Still you can discover many bugs in this made-up sheet, e.g. that the entries (just for Dortmund 1995, 1997, 1999 and San Sebastian 2009) say "no games rated for FIDE Elo", or that you don't find Karpov when browsing through the Dortmund tournament files (because these links have not yet been established backwards).
Quite shameful, though not the same caliber as the brute force by the other side.
I don't get it. Why do you think it is faked?
I can find Karpov when I browse through the Dortmund tournament files. Do you want to imply that he didn't play those tournaments? (Which doesn't matter for the membership question, but I'm curious why you would belief such a thing.)
Of course, Karpov played the tournaments, but just not as a member.
It's faked because
1st, the Member ID 10117-942 didn't exist before June 2010 (which can be proved easily by existing downloads of earlier database versions),
2nd, indeed, there are entries for this tournaments in the database, e.g.
http://schachbund.de/dwz/turniere/1999.html?code=9928-612-GXX
but with an Anatoly Karpov having a member IDs like K0RUS-199, a structure given to NON-members participating in dwz-rated German tournaments.
The entry for the Member Karpow was just made up recently, and does not fit smoothly into the existing data structures. As I mentioned, not even the links to the FIDE rating were set up correctly (therefore the entry of no FIDE rated games).
I can understand your view up to a point now. I still don't see evidence faking. Just because something didn't exist a month ago, doesn't mean it is faked. Spain wasn't World Champion a month ago, but nobody calls them faked therefore.
The high ZPS Nr. looks like the club reported him as a member recently, and the federation digged up some old tournament evaluations for his DWZ evaluation. Or it could have been triggered automatically by the rating report of the San Sebastian tournament.
I'm pretty sure to remember something about Karpov becoming a member of a German chess club back when he opened his chess school. If that's good enough to qualify him as a member of the federation probably depends on details like membership fees and legal precedents.
Indeed, the latter details might be crucial from the legal viewpoint, especially now when the membership question is taken to the courts (like in the Martinello case).
It was reported that Karpov became a member of Hockenheim when founding his chess school. Due to the regulations of German chess federation, it would have been the duty of the club to report him immediately. The recent changes (after the nomination) leave at least the impression that someone got the feeling that things need fixing.
I've got a hint about a further funny detail: Ironically, when making up the history, they forgot about the only existing federation tournament Karpov was playing, namely, four games in the 1993/1994 German Bundesliga.
http://schachbund.de/dwz/turniere/1994.html?code=9418-000.D01&mcount[]=1-2
Naturally, it was again a different code that time. His four games there gave him an initial DWZ of 2735
http://schachbund.de/dwz/turniere/2007.html?code=9418-000-D01&view=scoresheet&zps[]=70129-251&name[]=Karpow,Anatoli
which seems to have been lost later .
I didn't know he played Bundesliga. In this case, one question can be answered: His club registered him with the federation, and he was a member of the federation at the time. That's precondition for playing in any German league.
Right, and he lost the membership when leaving the club in 1994. Obviously, his registration ID back then became forgotten.
I guess the club kept him as a member, but didn't register him as an active player. They only pay fees for active players, so it wouldn't cost them anything to keep Karpov as a member.
Club membership is a straight forward thing: If he or the club didn't revoke the membership formally, he stays a member. But I don't know much about federation membership, if such a thing exists. Probably he is a member of the federation as long as he is a member of a club that belongs to the federation.
Korpov say he will give money for votes. Vote for smily Karpov and win $4 million dollas. I thoght he was again smily excelency for doing just the same. Try to buy votes. Who will buy the more votes.
Hardly so. Stadthagen drifted into major financial difficulties in 1994, resulting in a withdraw from Bundesliga after only one round of the new season. Karpov was too much of a professional to stay as an inactive player at a shipwreck, which might be harmful to possible other attractive offers from the Bundesliga.
When Dortmund was evaluated, the ID was obviously already forgotten.
Ha ha ha ha. Now every one must see. Two hipocrit bums. To bad they nto go away.
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